Paul Sargent (formerly Alfred Sargent) Appreciation Thread

[ABM]

Hey all, I just received my replacement pair of brown loafers and all of the issues with the last pair were resolved....

But for one, they once again have a weird unsightly crease around the sides of the uppers:
View attachment 2119491 View attachment 2119493
It is a super unfortunate Marr on an otherwise perfect pair of shoes. Anyone have any idea what causes this or if it can be fixed?

It is difficult to assess from the photos. It could just be a case of the shoes having been pressed against an edge, like another sole, for some time. Eventually, with use, it will less noticeable. Does gentle buffing help?

It could of course also be a real fault in the leather, but it would really surprise me if PS packed a pair of shoes with such an obvious flaw.

 

[ForwardPleats]

It is difficult to assess from the photos. It could just be a case of the shoes having been pressed against an edge, like another sole, for some time. Eventually, with use, it will less noticeable. Does gentle buffing help?

It could of course also be a real fault in the leather, but it would really surprise me if PS packed a pair of shoes with such an obvious flaw.

Thanks. This is the second time it has happened. It happened with my first pair of brown loafers that this pair was supposed to replace at a discount. Gentle buffing does not help sadly. It is hard to photograph but it is a pretty hard crease, it even goes into the reinforced toecap area.

My local Cobbler (who is top notch), is on vacation, but I sent him the photos by email and he thought it was a serious fault. His assessment is that something shifted with the lining during lasting and created the crease. He says it is not fixable without substantial work to take shoes apart and re-welt them and even then that is not guaranteed to fix it completely since the creases are already there. He says they should be returned for a free replacement and that this is an unacceptable flaw.

This is super frustrating because this is the second pair in a row that has had serious issues. The first pair of brown loafers had this same issue as well as a tear in the lining leather, a couple large scratches in the leather, and a really weird patina. They posted my shoes to Instagram before shipping and the colour was not what I ordered. More of a light chestnut than the dark espresso I ordered. So I emailed asking if it was a lighting issue. When the shoes arrived, the colour was what it was supposed to be, but that appeared to be the result of them being caked with dark polish after my email. They stunk out of the box unlike any shoes I had ever had and it started to come off right away.

It has been a very unsatisfying experience so far. It is so weird because my very first pair last summer were excellent and flawless.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Hey all, I just received my replacement pair of brown loafers and all of the issues with the last pair were resolved....

But for one, they once again have a weird unsightly crease around the sides of the uppers:
View attachment 2119491 View attachment 2119493
It is a super unfortunate Marr on an otherwise perfect pair of shoes. Anyone have any idea what causes this or if it can be fixed?

That looks like a stretch mark, nothing else. Can't really be "fixed", but with wear and tear these always becomes less visible. Is it acceptable? Hard to say from just these photos.

 

[ForwardPleats]

That looks like a stretch mark, nothing else. Is it acceptable? Hard to say from just these photos.

Thanks, but it's not a stretch mark or other leather issue. There are identical marks along both the outside and inside side of both shoes. It happened on the last pair I ordered as well. It is artificial creasing. It is perfectly parallel with welt and goes all the way from the front to the back. Here is the other previous pair showing it even at the reinforced toe:

It's like someone jammed the shoes against something too hard during the making. You can actually feel the creases with your fingers and press them flat from the inside.

My cobbler says it is a making error and suspects that the lining shifted during lasting. He says it is a fatal flaw and is not acceptable at this price range.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Thanks, but it's not a stretch mark or other leather issue. There are identical marks along both the outside and inside side of both shoes. It happened on the last pair I ordered as well. It is artificial creasing. It is perfectly parallel with welt and goes all the way from the front to the back. Here is the other previous pair showing it even at the reinforced toe:
View attachment 2120109

It's like someone jammed the shoes against something too hard during the making. You can actually feel the creases with your fingers and press them flat from the inside.

My cobbler says it is a making error and suspects that the lining shifted during lasting. He says it is a fatal flaw and is not acceptable at this price range.

I think it looks like a stretch mark on that photo too, if it's over the stiffener or not doesn't affect that at all, and stretch marks can be long. But if you say it's identical on all sides of both shoes, it sounds weird.

But I don't get what your cobbler mean with the lining "shifted during lasting"? If for example the lining would fold due to something like that, it would bulge the upper leather outwards, not inwards like here. And it certainly wouldn't be at the toe area, since there you have a toe puff in-between the lining and the upper.

 

[ForwardPleats]

I think it looks like a stretch mark on that photo too, if it's over the stiffener or not doesn't affect that at all, and stretch marks can be long. But if you say it's identical on all sides of both shoes, it sounds weird.

But I don't get what your cobbler mean with the lining "shifted during lasting"? If for example the lining would fold due to something like that, it would bulge the upper leather outwards, not inwards like here. And it certainly wouldn't be at the toe area, since there you have a toe puff in-between the lining and the upper.

It's not stretch marks. Nothing natural.

It is clearly artificial. They are all identical on what is four shoes now (two pairs). It is a perfectly straight palpable crease (I mean crease, you can push it flat where there isn't a toe puff) on the both the inside and outside of each shoe. It starts right at the front on each side of the square toe and ends right before the heel counter.

If it wasn't for what my cobbler said, my personal guess would be that someone wasn't careful while stitching a welt or sole and the edge of something pressed hard into the upper during that creating a hard crease in the leather. Hence why it follows the line of the welt.

 

[ABM]

It's not stretch marks. Nothing natural.

It is clearly artificial. They are all identical on what is four shoes now (two pairs). It is a perfectly straight palpable crease (I mean crease, you can push it flat where there isn't a toe puff) on the both the inside and outside of each shoe. It starts right at the front on each side of the square toe and ends right before the heel counter.

If it wasn't for what my cobbler said, my personal guess would be that someone wasn't careful while stitching a welt or sole and the edge of something pressed hard into the upper during that creating a hard crease in the leather. Hence why it follows the line of the welt.

Sounds like you should return them.

 

[ForwardPleats]

Sounds like you should return them.

Yeah, that is my intention now. It's annoying because this is actually supposed to be a replacement pair for a pair that has this same issue, plus several other quality control issues. They offered to remake my shoes for half price due to the issues with the last pair. I feel like I was being too nice accepting a 50% discount as opposed to a free replacement. Hopefully, third time's the charm.

 

[corpseposeur]

So I had a pair of handgrade shoes made and the sizing was off. To PS's credit they offered to remake it for me. They sent me two try on shoes back in August and I had shared a model last for me to try but no word on when and if I will get the remade shoes. I really like the Sargent shoes and and Chelsea boots that I have, but will likely explore different brands in future.

 

[ForwardPleats]

So I had a pair of handgrade shoes made and the sizing was off. To PS's credit they offered to remake it for me. They sent me two try on shoes back in August and I had shared a model last for me to try but no word on when and if I will get the remade shoes. I really like the Sargent shoes and and Chelsea boots that I have, but will likely explore different brands in future.

Sad to hear I'm not the only one who has had recent issues. These were a big investment purchase for me at the top of my price range.

I have narrow feet with a low instep so I have a lot of issues with standard sizes. The fact that Paul Sargent offered narrow widths and shoes with classic English style made them a dream for me. And the split sized pairs they made for me are the best fitting shoes I have ever had, just sadly something has happened to damage them during production twice now.

 

[ABM]

Yeah, that is my intention now. It's annoying because this is actually supposed to be a replacement pair for a pair that has this same issue, plus several other quality control issues. They offered to remake my shoes for half price due to the issues with the last pair. I feel like I was being too nice accepting a 50% discount as opposed to a free replacement. Hopefully, third time's the charm.

So you paid for the first pair in full, returned them, and then paid an an additional 50 percent? That doesn't seem like a very good deal if I've understood you correctly - it's also pretty unusual and seems to suggest that PS don't agree the first pair were faulty?

 

[j ingevaldsson]

It's not stretch marks. Nothing natural.

It is clearly artificial. They are all identical on what is four shoes now (two pairs). It is a perfectly straight palpable crease (I mean crease, you can push it flat where there isn't a toe puff) on the both the inside and outside of each shoe. It starts right at the front on each side of the square toe and ends right before the heel counter.

If it wasn't for what my cobbler said, my personal guess would be that someone wasn't careful while stitching a welt or sole and the edge of something pressed hard into the upper during that creating a hard crease in the leather. Hence why it follows the line of the welt.

Sorry, but it's hard to follow, since you seem to contradict yourself. In you original post, you stated one shoe had this issue. Now it's four in total? And you talk about creasing, but a crease occurs when you fold or bend something. During making the shoes have a last in them, you can't crease the uppers then. Maybe easier if you show all the errors instead of describing them?

 

[ForwardPleats]

Sorry, but it's hard to follow, since you seem to contradict yourself. In you original post, you stated one shoe had this issue. Now it's four in total? And you talk about creasing, but a crease occurs when you fold or bend something. During making the shoes have a last in them, you can't crease the uppers then. Maybe easier if you show all the errors instead of describing them?

I think this might be a misunderstanding due to lack of context. I never said one shoe had the issue. When I said "but for one" in my first post on this issue I was talking about how my previous pair of shoe had a lot of different problems with them (these creases, as well as a ripped lining, long scratches in the leather, and appeared to have been darkened to the correct colour with caked on polish that started cracking, etc.) and that is pair corrected all of those issues but for the creasing. The issues with the previous pair was why Paul Sargent agreed to make me this replacement pair at a discount. I don't have the original shoes with me to provide photos (other the one above, the previous pair were a lighter brown)

This pair does not have any of the issues with the other pair except for these weird creases. Don't worry, I know what creases are. I get that it is weird that they would occur given the lasts inside during the making of the shoes. I think that is why my cobbler was wondering about something shifting on the inside making the creases. Given the colour of the shoes, it is very hard to take wide shots showing the issue from front to back.

But here are more photos:
Left shoe:

Right shoe (the impression is softer/shallower on this one):

 

[ForwardPleats]

So you paid for the first pair in full, returned them, and then paid an an additional 50 percent? That doesn't seem like a very good deal if I've understood you correctly - it's also pretty unusual and seems to suggest that PS don't agree the first pair were faulty?

They told me to keep the first pair, probably because they were MTO and split-sized. So they couldn't resell them as factory seconds. They very much agreed in email that the shoes were faulty and apologized for the issues and the fact that they passed QC inspection when they shouldn't have.

But yeah, it wasn't a great deal. I shouldn't have agreed to keep them since I had no intention of wearing them long term really. I only really agreed because I didn't mind having the chance to break them in and confirm the fit.

 

[ForwardPleats]

@j ingevaldsson @ABM so Paul Sargent is admitting the fault and agree that they are creases. They claim that the shoes were flawless when they left the factory and must have been damaged during shipping. They also claim it is an easy fix (but we all know it is impossible to un-crease leather) and because it is the shipping issue, they are refusing to replace the shoes.

None of this makes any sense to me. I don't get how two pairs of shoes shipped separately could be damaged during shipping in the exact same way in the exact same places especially when the packaging was completely unblemished. Also, why would Paul Sargent not just make a shipping insurance claim or not offer that as an option? Last, I've come to realize that the creases are faintly visible on the photos taken of the first pair by PS before they left the factory.

This is all so discouraging. I've been trying to upgrade from my old Loake 1880s in order to get something higher quality with a better fit for my narrow, low instep feet, and both brands I have tried have been rife with issues I've never experienced with either cheaper Northampton or Italian shoes.

The Cheaney Imperials I have tried have had very prominent stretch marks all over the vamp and toe (they look like tiger stripes) and other issues like chipped heels and sloppy finishing. And now the PS shoes which seemed like an answer to my dreams in terms of styling, split-sizing, last choice, and finishing, have this seemingly unavoidable creasing. Something just doesn't add up.