Mental Health and Clothing

[Leiker]

Interesting, I wasn't familiar with Sartre, it sounds like he delves into existentialism, which I'm not as familiar with. This may be a jumping off point for me to research in the future, thanks man.

He's a key figure in Existentialism, and led an interesting life. Worth looking into.

 

[jdhoop]

I'm glad to see this thread, as I do struggle with perfectionism OCD and it most often manifests around menswear. I've experienced significant, prolonged stress over little things like an 1/8 inch difference in the position of a shirt button, or the slight feeling of my foot's natural movement in a shoe, or the precise hem of my trousers' inseam.

Those of us who appreciate the fine details of well-made clothes tend to be a bit particular, but I realized recently that my perfectionism goes beyond this in a way that's unhealthy. I know that it's not just a matter of vanity. I've never been one to care much about what others think...(hence why I've always dressed like an old man!) It's more a matter of things needing to be "just right" to satisfy my own mind. For a while I may obsess over the length of my shirt sleeves—compulsively measuring them to see if they're consistent, repeatedly researching the proper sleeve length, selling certain shirts, or otherwise finding ways to resolve the inconsistencies. But then after a while I'll stop worrying about the sleeves and the obsession will move on to some other issue, like the collar or the button spacing.

It's all very exhausting. It keeps me from enjoying many of the nice clothes I invest in, and more importantly it distracts from family and the truly valuable things in life. On a positive note, I've recently learned how to recognize these patterns of OCD and address them with the exposure and response prevention method, and I've been seeing a counselor specialized in this.

It's still a challenge though. I've basically accepted the fact that with most every new clothing item I buy (or any relatively expensive new thing of any sort), I will have to endure an initial period of stress over some perceived imperfection or problem with the item. Even if it is perfect, I'll become stressed about the possibility of damaging it somehow. I'll go through a period of wanting to avoid wearing the thing, making me feel like it was a waste of a purchase, or else wearing it and being mentally uncomfortable and distracted the whole day. Increasingly, I can endure this stressful period because I've been through it so many times, and I know that eventually I'll forget about whatever it is that bothered me, and then I'll finally be able to enjoy the garment or whatever the thing is. Of course then my anxiety will shift its focus to some other item, but hopefully it's getting less severe over time as I realize how much of this is all in my head—and as I train my brain to tolerate the stressful uncertainties and let them pass.

If anyone else has experienced anything like this form of OCD with clothes, it'd be great to hear from you, but at the very least I hope my sharing this has been an encouragement.

 

[dieworkwear]

I'm glad to see this thread, as I do struggle with perfectionism OCD and it most often manifests around menswear. I've experienced significant, prolonged stress over little things like an 1/8 inch difference in the position of a shirt button, or the slight feeling of my foot's natural movement in a shoe, or the precise hem of my trousers' inseam.

Those of us who appreciate the fine details of well-made clothes tend to be a bit particular, but I realized recently that my perfectionism goes beyond this in a way that's unhealthy. I know that it's not just a matter of vanity. I've never been one to care much about what others think...(hence why I've always dressed like an old man!) It's more a matter of things needing to be "just right" to satisfy my own mind. For a while I may obsess over the length of my shirt sleeves—compulsively measuring them to see if they're consistent, repeatedly researching the proper sleeve length, selling certain shirts, or otherwise finding ways to resolve the inconsistencies. But then after a while I'll stop worrying about the sleeves and the obsession will move on to some other issue, like the collar or the button spacing.

It's all very exhausting. It keeps me from enjoying many of the nice clothes I invest in, and more importantly it distracts from family and the truly valuable things in life. On a positive note, I've recently learned how to recognize these patterns of OCD and address them with the exposure and response prevention method, and I've been seeing a counselor specialized in this.

It's still a challenge though. I've basically accepted the fact that with most every new clothing item I buy (or any relatively expensive new thing of any sort), I will have to endure an initial period of stress over some perceived imperfection or problem with the item. Even if it is perfect, I'll become stressed about the possibility of damaging it somehow. I'll go through a period of wanting to avoid wearing the thing, making me feel like it was a waste of a purchase, or else wearing it and being mentally uncomfortable and distracted the whole day. Increasingly, I can endure this stressful period because I've been through it so many times, and I know that eventually I'll forget about whatever it is that bothered me, and then I'll finally be able to enjoy the garment or whatever the thing is. Of course then my anxiety will shift its focus to some other item, but hopefully it's getting less severe over time as I realize how much of this is all in my head—and as I train my brain to tolerate the stressful uncertainties and let them pass.

If anyone else has experienced anything like this form of OCD with clothes, it'd be great to hear from you, but at the very least I hope my sharing this has been an encouragement.

I've gone through those phases and still think of tailored clothing in 1/8" measurements. I can't speak on the medical condition of having OCD since I don't have any training in relevant fields. But I think the experience you described is pervasive among people who are obsessive about clothing -- and tailored clothing in particular.

I think this has gotten worse over the years because of the intersection of two trends: the amount of information available online and the slow deterioration of one-stop-shop retailing.

About two hundred years ago, people had their clothes made in the home, or if they could afford one, they went to a tailor. From the late-19th century to the early 20th century, people bought their clothes from one, maybe two, possibly three stores. Brooks Brothers was once famous for their "CU customers," which were customers who would come in and ask to see a specific sales associate. That sales associate took notes about your size, preferences, and lifestyle, and would recommend things to you. They became your sales associate for life. They also advised on how to dress for certain occasions, such that if you went in and told them you had to attend a summer wedding, they would sell you the right things. Apparel Arts, a periodical that was a precursor to Esquire, was sold to people in the fashion industry so that clothiers could figure out how to dress people.

In the post-war period, sportswear exploded, and people had more options on how to create an identity. So then we get the proliferation of casualwear and designer clothing. Someone might go to Levis to buy a "workwear look" and then Brooks Brothers for trad and Armani to look Italian.

We've seen another breakdown in the last thirty years: these mono-brand boutiques have been broken into specialty companies. It's no longer that you go to Armani to look Italian. There are specific companies for Italian shirts, British pants, and Austro-Hungarian shoes. There are even companies that only sell socks.

So now you have this incredibly informed and nit-picky customer base that's cobbling a look together from dozens, sometimes hundreds, of stores, trying to figure out how to put together a cohesive wardrobe. These companies don't even have trained sales associates. The SAs are just trying to push a sale out the door -- perhaps reasonably, as there's little customer loyalty nowadays (customers are more loyal to brands, not stores). Thus, it's easy to walk out with poor-fitting pants, shoes, jackets, shirts, etc., and have a cobbled-together outfit that doesn't look good or feel satisfying to wear. They are often also left scouring the internet to try to figure out how to dress for basic events such as weddings.

Some thoughts on how to get around this:

1. Find the Right People: I think the process of building a good wardrobe is easier and less anxious if you don't try to do it all yourself. Instead of cobbling together all these things from micro-companies, try to find good stores and tailors who can help you build a wardrobe without you needing to micromanage them. For instance, I've noticed that PatrickR and DavidLane, two members on this forum, sped through the wardrobe building process because they worked with good custom tailors. I'm the last person who says custom tailoring is a solution to everyone's problems -- often, custom clothes comes out awful. But if you've found a good tailor, they can take care of all the issues such as jacket length, buttoning point positioning, sleeve length, etc. This way, you're not adjusting a RTW garment at home and trying to figure out if this is right or wrong -- someone else takes care of it for you.

I started a thread on this forum a long time ago about finding good service professionals such as tailors, dry cleaners, etc. I can't find the thread right now, but I will post a link if I can dig it up later.

2. Don't Get Stuck in CM: I touched on this earlier, but I think this stuff is a lot more enjoyable if people don't get stuck in CM. Tailored clothing is precise, requires considerable upkeep, and costs a lot of money. If you move towards other aesthetics, such as workwear, a wonky fit is part of the charm. Certain casualwear styles also look better with age and patina, whereas a stained suit does not have the same appeal. When guys start paying attention to clothes, many get stuck in CM because they think dressing up is dressing well. But once you expand towards other aesthetics, you may find that clothes both feel more natural to your environment, and you don't have the same CM anxieties.

3. Remembering that Style is More than Clothes: It goes without saying, but style is more than clothes. It's your attitude, behavior, what you have to say, your personality, etc. Sometimes I think people here make too much of clothes (e.g., saying that it's crucial to climb up in your field). When I take a step back and look at the real world, I find most people don't care about clothes, and they are often doing fine, if not better, than the average clotheshorse. I have a couple of suits that don't fit "right," but I wear them anyway and realize 99% of people don't notice or care. I also think that wardrobebuilding is a decade-plus long process, so if a certain purchase doesn't turn out well, I just chalk it up to a learning experience and figure I'll do better next time.

 

[Geoffrey Firmin]

@dieworkwear very interesting and mentally stimulating post.

I believe that Style is inherently linked to Self; what and who I am, a process of becoming which incorporates a multiplicity of elements including taste both in terms of clothing, gastronomy, the creative arts amongst other personalised indulgences that are not specifically consumer driven. If anything it’s a project of definition into action that evolves and is articulated by time.

 

[stuffedsuperdud]

Most of the unease I feel about being so obsessed and passionate about clothes is reconciling it with the deep existential dread I feel around the impacts overconsumption is having on our planet and communities.

I just started and am enjoying Alec Leach’s new short manifesto of a book on this topic: “The world is on fire but we’re still buying shoes.“ https://alecleach.com/

That dread (among a few other related themes in the grab-bag of anxieties for left-leaning 1st World neurotics that I draw from, most of which center on mankind's self-destructive tendencies) has for me pretty effectively killed any "fun" I might have had in playing on the hedonic treadmill of menswear. This has had the upside of forcing me to only buy stuff, clothes or otherwise, that I am sure I will use until it disintegrates, and for a morally unforgivable industry such as fashion, I've tried to to buy only from vendors with short, (relatively) transparent supply chains. Makes everything stupid expensive which further discourages me from buying unless absolutely necessary (and I could just be the victim of a whitewashing scam...) but I figure one has to try...

This had the added benefit of reintroducing me to some Buddhist ideas (see above) mostly centered around the wild notion that happiness lies not in all this stuff but in letting go of attachments to my current stuff as well as cravings that might be stoked by asshats in marketing, which I've found applicable to the parts of life not involving clothing.

Re: tailoring specifically, well, frankly, tailoring is kind of a biatch to have a lot of anyway, amirite? That applies 2x to anxious types. The trouble with garments that are dialed down to 1/8" of an inch is that humans are not precise to 1/8". Far from a finely-tuned bit of engineering, I am a stupid meatbag. In the morning my waist is 1.5" smaller while my height is about 0.5" greater. If I am dehydrated, my neck is actually about 0.5" thicker, and if I was just at the gym, my arms and thighs about 0.5" and 1" bigger around, respectively. And those are just daily fluctuations. If you have enough suits and sportcoats to only wear each one every week or two, or god forbid if you have a seasonal wardrobe then you'll only like six wears out of that gray flannel suit before you have to take it, and its entire cohort, off to the tailor to have something changed, and by that I mean have the pants and waist let out because let's face it, over time, we only change in that one direction. You're also constantly pressing, steaming, spot-cleaning, and setting moth traps, because these things are at a not-really-washable relic of the early 19th century. I'm a pretty fussy and detail-oriented guy by nature (my kindergarten teacher told my mom kindly that I was "very excited about understanding all the rules") but in the end decided I just don't have enough room in my bank of emotional reserves to worry about six blue suits, five gray suits, and a bajillion SC's and odd trousers that all kinda look the same anyway. For the past several months I've been wearing the same two blue suits, two odd gray/tan trousers, two tan chinos, and handful of blue and white shirts and polos and....my life hasn't gotten worse for it. The cotton items are easy to wash and iron and I'm always confident that my tailoring fits okay, because I just wore them a few days ago.

I remember growing up, liking clothes and style was seen to be a feminine, gay pursuit from homophobes.

I've also had my sexuality questioned by people I trust and respect, till this day, with an overtone of "hoping I'm straight". That does involve other factors as well, but that's a different topic.

I accepted my love for fashion and clothing. If anything, it roots out people that I've no more business interacting with.

I also have to thank gay people for normalizing being into style for straight men.

I know that sounds like it contradicts what I wrote up there, but I believe the homophobia towards loving clothing would have been worse if the LGBT community didn't "pave the way" for this to be more acceptable these days.

I don't think "Teh Gayz" to whom you refer normalized fashion so much as it was forced upon them, leaving some of them feeling like they had no choice but to own it. Derek wrote a short piece about this some time back. The TLDR was IIRC that it wasn't always considered gay/feminine/etc. for a man to pay attention to his clothes; all of the Western European history we studied in school is full of vain assholes in gaudy clothes riding horses and conquering new worlds, after all. Derek points to the indecency trial of Oscar Wilde, himself a clotheshorse, as a watershed moment when the public equated fashion with gay, and suddenly men became very uncomfortable with liking clothes. Note that the gay community is just as heterogeneous as any other community that has millions of members, and not all of them are interested in embracing the fashion angle; there are subcultures that actively reject traditionally feminine topics like fashion and dress and conduct themselves in accordance with exaggerated hypermasculine norms.

 

[Jax]

We've seen another breakdown in the last thirty years: these mono-brand boutiques have been broken into specialty companies. It's no longer that you go to Armani to look Italian. There are specific companies for Italian shirts, British pants, and Austro-Hungarian shoes. There are even companies that only sell socks.

To me this just seems like a Japanification of shopping. Japan has alway been known to have boutiques that catered to one specific item in extreme detail.

 

[ld111134]

Man On Internet Almost Falls Into World Of DIY Mustard Enthusiasts

DES MOINES, IA—When Steve Gibson first became casually involved with an online community of mustard makers, he had no idea his mild interest in the condiment would, within a few short months, spiral dangerously out of control.

www.theonion.com

 

[dieworkwear]

This quote from a Vox article reminds me of the new Shoe Thread where people are trying to rank the top 14 shoe brands under $500.

The full article:

The awful American consumer

We want cheap stuff fast and don’t care who it hurts.

www.vox.com

The quote:

David Mick, a professor of commerce at the University of Virginia, describes the situation as the “er” phenomenon, where people are led to believe that there is always something better ahead. “If you think about packaging or advertising, products across the spectrum are constantly positioning themselves as softer, sweeter, easier, smoother, quieter, longer-lasting, or just the big word, better,” he said. “We’re always being set up that whatever we’re looking at or considering to buy is better.”

In his book The Paradox of Choice, Barry Schwartz talks about how people become anxious and frozen when faced with too many choices, and often leave wondering if they maximized utility whenever they make a purchase. "Is there something better out there?" I think this need to maximize utility (e.g., find the best at every price point) induces anxiety and doesn't even lead to better outfits.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Not sure if this is a fit for this thread.. I felt and noticed that I am more productive, less stressed and "not so grumpy" when wearing a button up/dress shirt with a jacket and trousers while working from home rather than my usual t shirt and hoodie wfh outfit.

 

[ValidusLA]

I remember reading some post about "Spiritual Deflation" when putting on a bespoke garment from @ValidusLA, and thought it was funny and highly relatable. The expectations and excitement for a high end piece is often greater than the actual result. "This is nice" is what we might feel when putting it on and it doesn't match our expectations.

Man, if only what you are referencing were my words. I was quoting RJMan's Swan Songs in the related thread:

"But as every customer of a bespoke maker has discovered, receiving your first custom garment usually results in a certain spiritual deflation." - 174.
Yes, alas. At some point you use the term fata morgana to describe such things. This is generally how I feel about much of the things that I chase and then acquire. Almost as if the "high" leaves the minute you actually own the long awaited item.

This does all hit on hedonic treadmill problems.

Good thread.

I honestly wish I were self aware enough to correctly diagnose my own issues.

I definitely have some neurosis involved in buying and acquiring clothing. I think these are wrapped up in a deep seated inferiority complex along with a fairly neurotic nature.

 

[FlyingHorker]

I don't think "Teh Gayz" to whom you refer normalized fashion so much as it was forced upon them, leaving some of them feeling like they had no choice but to own it. Derek wrote a short piece about this some time back. The TLDR was IIRC that it wasn't always considered gay/feminine/etc. for a man to pay attention to his clothes; all of the Western European history we studied in school is full of vain assholes in gaudy clothes riding horses and conquering new worlds, after all. Derek points to the indecency trial of Oscar Wilde, himself a clotheshorse, as a watershed moment when the public equated fashion with gay, and suddenly men became very uncomfortable with liking clothes. Note that the gay community is just as heterogeneous as any other community that has millions of members, and not all of them are interested in embracing the fashion angle; there are subcultures that actively reject traditionally feminine topics like fashion and dress and conduct themselves in accordance with exaggerated hypermasculine norms.

Welp, this shattered the rose tinted goggles, I'm definitely not familiar with a lot of history, especially the bolded.

I don't remember reading Derek's article on this though, have a link?

LGBT subcultures that follow exaggerated hypermasculine norms also sounds interesting, what are they called?

Man, if only what you are referencing were my words. I was quoting RJMan's Swan Songs in the related thread:

This does all hit on hedonic treadmill problems.

Good thread.

I honestly wish I were self aware enough to correctly diagnose my own issues.

I definitely have some neurosis involved in buying and acquiring clothing. I think these are wrapped up in a deep seated inferiority complex along with a fairly neurotic nature.

Woops, thanks for the correction and citation.

FWIW, my self-awareness was not what lead to correctly diagnose my own issues, if that makes you feel any better. I lived in denial for most of my life. Looking back, I was a pretty anxious, neurotic child as well.

Diagnosing and managing my issues has involved: visiting multiple therapists over the years, university academic advisors noticing issues I didn't notice, assessments by my doctors, etc.

 

[Hybrid Vigor]

I don't remember reading Derek's article on this though, have a link?

Why Are Fit Pics Headless?

 

[FlyingHorker]

Why Are Fit Pics Headless?

Thanks, welcome to the forum!

Interesting read, it explains a lot on why a lot of us post headless pictures. Also depressing on how little things have changed since the Oscar Wilde trial in 1895.

 

[Geoffrey Firmin]

Welp, this shattered the rose tinted goggles, I'm definitely not familiar with a lot of history, especially the bolded.

I don't remember reading Derek's article on this though, have a link?

LGBT subcultures that follow exaggerated hypermasculine norms also sounds interesting, what are they called?

Woops, thanks for the correction and citation.

FWIW, my self-awareness was not what lead to correctly diagnose my own issues, if that makes you feel any better. I lived in denial for most of my life. Looking back, I was a pretty anxious, neurotic child as well.

Diagnosing and managing my issues has involved: visiting multiple therapists over the years, university academic advisors noticing issues I didn't notice, assessments by my doctors, etc.

Hi I agree with you about the talking cure its been helpful to me over some very bleak times in my ife. But I wonder what exercise are you doing? I have a Black Dog and I know when the mongrel is rattling its chains, so first off I cut right back on the alcohol or virtually stop drinking and increase my exercise load. I will hit the gym treadmills, circuit training & weights, not that I behave like the young bulls in the top paddock. I aim for four to five visits a week as opposed to three till the beast sulks off and retreats to the kennel. I also have a 35 kilo lap dog (Red Nose Pitbul) who requires a lot of power walking not happy if its under 45 minutes morning and night. So while the talking cure is all well and good I just wonder about your exercise regimen.

 

[FlyingHorker]

Hi I agree with you about the talking cure its been helpful to me over some very bleak times in my ife. But I wonder what exercise are you doing? I have a Black Dog and I know when the mongrel is rattling its chains, so first off I cut right back on the alcohol or virtually stop drinking and increase my exercise load. I will hit the gym treadmills, circuit training & weights, not that I behave like the young bulls in the top paddock. I aim for four to five visits a week as opposed to three till the beast sulks off and retreats to the kennel. I also have a 35 kilo lap dog (Red Nose Pitbul) who requires a lot of power walking not happy if its under 45 minutes morning and night. So while the talking cure is all well and good I just wonder about your exercise regimen.

Hey man. I enjoy your analogy of the Black Dog rattling its chains.

I focus on the hex bar deadlift, squat, bench press, overhead press. I also do lighter weight bodybuilding accessories every single day, focusing on Push/Pull/Legs/Core. Some may say this is too fatiguing, but I generally don't go heavy enough on accessories for it to matter, it gets in the volume for me.

My therapist asked why I enjoy heavier compound lifts. I answered, "I have to focus and concentrate extremely hard to dial in the form and complete the lifts." She said this is a form of mindfulness meditation because I'm focusing on being present.

I generally aim to hit the gym 4 days a week for lifting, but dialed back down to 2 due to school.

I follow Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 template for training. I find it pretty adaptable and it doesn't require too much thinking once I figured out the programming.