The MBA Thread

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by mkarim

The relative difficulty of the verbal part is debatable. But the math part of both exams are a joke, esp if you've been educated outside the US (in an educational system where you actually learn something). I found high school math (at A-level under the British system) to be far more difficult and challenging that anything either GRE or GMAT have thrown at me. Simultaneous equations on a graduate school admissions test? Seriously!!

You realize that generalized statement is ridiculous, right? Just anti-American BS. It's one thing if you take exception to the education gap that exists here but the top students in the US match up to the top students anywhere (and that's who we are talking about in an MBA thread). Otherwise, why would foreign students kill themselves trying to get into US schools full of US-educated teachers and students? and why would global publications routinely rank US schools as the best in the world (not just some of them, but the majority of the top 50 post-secondary schools are all based in the US according to British and Chinese publications).

 

[mkarim]

Originally Posted by BC2012

You realize that generalized statement is ridiculous, right? Just anti-American BS. It's one thing if you take exception to the education gap that exists here but the top students in the US match up to the top students anywhere (and that's who we are talking about in an MBA thread). Otherwise, why would foreign students kill themselves trying to get into US schools full of US-educated teachers and students? and why would global publications routinely rank US schools as the best in the world (not just some of them, but the majority of the top 50 post-secondary schools are all based in the US according to British and Chinese publications).

I was refering to the US education system before graduate school. Its common knowledge that US graduate schools are good but undergraduate and below are subpar (in general). Also just because someone says the math standards in US schools is poor does not make them anti-American. Every country in the world has strengths and weaknesses. Not everything about America is great just like not everything about Third World countries is poor.

 

[mkarim]

Originally Posted by BC2012

You realize that generalized statement is ridiculous, right? Just anti-American BS. It's one thing if you take exception to the education gap that exists here but the top students in the US match up to the top students anywhere (and that's who we are talking about in an MBA thread). Otherwise, why would foreign students kill themselves trying to get into US schools full of US-educated teachers and students? and why would global publications routinely rank US schools as the best in the world (not just some of them, but the majority of the top 50 post-secondary schools are all based in the US according to British and Chinese publications).

I have been educated under the Asian, Middle Eastern, British, Canadian and American educational systems. I would think I'm in a position to make that conclusion.

Again, mine is an opinion and an opinion only, based on my experience. We should be able to express it openly, shouldn't we?

 

[Metlin]

Originally Posted by BC2012

You realize that generalized statement is ridiculous, right? Just anti-American BS. It's one thing if you take exception to the education gap that exists here but the top students in the US match up to the top students anywhere (and that's who we are talking about in an MBA thread). Otherwise, why would foreign students kill themselves trying to get into US schools full of US-educated teachers and students? and why would global publications routinely rank US schools as the best in the world (not just some of them, but the majority of the top 50 post-secondary schools are all based in the US according to British and Chinese publications).
There is some truth to it, however, especially when it comes to math and the sciences. I had my high-school education outside the US, and calculus and advanced sciences were mandatory for anyone in the science stream (i.e. you decided as you entered high-school if you wanted to do engineering/science, finance/accounting, or medicine -- your high-school curriculum was tailored to this end, with very little material outside your areas of focus). For the entrance examinations to various colleges in the engineering & sciences category, kids were routinely solving problems from books like IE Irodov's Problems in General Physics in their 10th grade. Now arguably, they had a leg-up since the preparation starts way earlier, but high-school education in Asia is certainly much more intense, especially in the engineering and sciences. Now, the sad thing is that most undergraduate institutions in these countries are mediocre -- the best get into the handful few outstanding institutions, and these institutions are famous less because of their educational system and more because of the fact that they are very picky and only want the best and the brightest. The reason for this, once again, is funding, because the best and the brightest would rather get into an industry like IT and make money than slum it out as a teacher. Also keep in mind that a lot of these rankings are quite meaningless since they look for "all rounded" graduates, not necessarily students who are extremely good at math or physics but little else. The reason most of them come to the US for graduate studies is because graduate education in the US provides them with significantly more opportunities than it would in their home countries. In countries that are less well off, funding is scarce, and any applied science research is very difficult, and ergo very competitive (and political -- not that it isn't in the US, but I digress). Your choice is to study something theoretical, but then those jobs don't pay much. To give you an idea, from my class of 32, pretty much everyone has a graduate degree -- and 18 of them either have their PhDs or are in the process of getting one from top institutions in the world (anywhere from Caltech or MIT in the US to Max Planck Institute in Germany to Technion in Israel or even Landau in Russia).

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by mkarim

I was refering to the US education system before graduate school. Its common knowledge that US graduate schools are good but undergraduate and below are subpar (in general). Also just because someone says the math standards in US schools is poor does not make them anti-American. Every country in the world has strengths and weaknesses. Not everything about America is great just like not everything about Third World countries is poor.

US undergraduate institutions are considered best in the world, too, fwiw.

I'd be first in line to point out an area I felt was poor in the US, as I feel there are always ways to strengthen weaknesses, but I just don't think you right in your opinion is all. There is the notion that US high schools don't push math and science as hard. I agree with that in general, but at the highest levels I disagree. I took 9 AP classes in high school and it covered as much math as I suspect any other country would cover (outside of India where you need to move through DiffyQ before applying to the IIT system) and certainly as much science.

And at an undergrad level, I wholeheartedly disagree. There's a reason foreign kids from Asia are considered failures if they don't get into an Ivy or MIT/CalTech/Stanford.

 

[mkarim]

Originally Posted by Metlin

There is some truth to it, however, especially when it comes to math and the sciences.

I had my high-school education outside the US, and calculus and advanced sciences were mandatory for anyone in the science stream (i.e. you decided as you entered high-school if you wanted to do engineering/science, finance/accounting, or medicine -- your high-school curriculum was tailored to this end, with very little material outside your areas of focus).

For the entrance examinations to various colleges in the engineering & sciences category, kids were routinely solving problems from books like IE Irodov's Problems in General Physics in their 10th grade. Now arguably, they had a leg-up since the preparation starts way earlier, but high-school education in Asia is certainly much more intense, especially in the engineering and sciences.

Now, the sad thing is that most undergraduate institutions in these countries are mediocre -- the best get into the handful few outstanding institutions, and these institutions are famous less because of their educational system and more because of the fact that they are very picky and only want the best and the brightest. The reason for this, once again, is funding, because the best and the brightest would rather get into an industry like IT and make money than slum it out as a teacher. Also keep in mind that a lot of these rankings are quite meaningless since they look for "all rounded" graduates, not necessarily students who are extremely good at math or physics but little else.

The reason most of them come to the US for graduate studies is because graduate education in the US provides them with significantly more opportunities than it would in their home countries. In countries that are less well off, funding is scarce, and any applied science research is very difficult, and ergo very competitive (and political -- not that it isn't in the US, but I digress). Your choice is to study something theoretical, but then those jobs don't pay much.

To give you an idea, from my class of 32, pretty much everyone has a graduate degree -- and 18 of them either have their PhDs or are in the process of getting one from top institutions in the world (anywhere from Caltech or MIT in the US to Max Planck Institute in Germany to Technion in Israel).

This is very very true. Right on the money. For example, we were doing simultaneous equations in 8th grade.

Also you have to understand that "America" is the world's most sought-after brand name. Everything American is automatically considered to be superior than anything non-American (outside the US). This doesn't mean all American things are bad or subpar but you have to consider than many people's opinions are affected by that brand name attached to it.

Again, NOT an implication that everything American is bad.

 

[mkarim]

Originally Posted by BC2012

US undergraduate institutions are considered best in the world, too, fwiw.

I'd be first in line to point out an area I felt was poor in the US, as I feel there are always ways to strengthen weaknesses, but I just don't think you right in your opinion is all. There is the notion that US high schools don't push math and science as hard. I agree with that in general, but at the highest levels I disagree. I took 9 AP classes in high school and it covered as much math as I suspect any other country would cover (outside of India where you need to move through DiffyQ before applying to the IIT system) and certainly as much science.

And at an undergrad level, I wholeheartedly disagree. There's a reason foreign kids from Asia are considered failures if they don't get into an Ivy or MIT/CalTech/Stanford.

You are talking about elite US undergrad schools (Harvard, MIT, Stanford etc). Those don't represent US undergrad schools in general. I was talking about US undergrads IN GENERAL, not Ivy Leagues.

 

[fashion_newbie]

Never realized this thread existed. Applied to Sloan, Wharton and CBS. Working on Kellogg, almost done.

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by Metlin

There is some truth to it, however, especially when it comes to math and the sciences.

I had my high-school education outside the US, and calculus and advanced sciences were mandatory for anyone in the science stream (i.e. you decided as you entered high-school if you wanted to do engineering/science, finance/accounting, or medicine -- your high-school curriculum was tailored to this end, with very little material outside your areas of focus).

For the entrance examinations to various colleges in the engineering & sciences category, kids were routinely solving problems from books like IE Irodov's Problems in General Physics in their 10th grade. Now arguably, they had a leg-up since the preparation starts way earlier, but high-school education in Asia is certainly much more intense, especially in the engineering and sciences.

Now, the sad thing is that most undergraduate institutions in these countries are mediocre -- the best get into the handful few outstanding institutions, and these institutions are famous less because of their educational system and more because of the fact that they are very picky and only want the best and the brightest. The reason for this, once again, is funding, because the best and the brightest would rather get into an industry like IT and make money than slum it out as a teacher. Also keep in mind that a lot of these rankings are quite meaningless since they look for "all rounded" graduates, not necessarily students who are extremely good at math or physics but little else.

The reason most of them come to the US for graduate studies is because graduate education in the US provides them with significantly more opportunities than it would in their home countries. In countries that are less well off, funding is scarce, and any applied science research is very difficult, and ergo very competitive (and political -- not that it isn't in the US, but I digress). Your choice is to study something theoretical, but then those jobs don't pay much.

To give you an idea, from my class of 32, pretty much everyone has a graduate degree -- and 18 of them either have their PhDs or are in the process of getting one from top institutions in the world (anywhere from Caltech or MIT in the US to Max Planck Institute in Germany to Technion in Israel or even Landau in Russia).

I agree that these countries focus more on maths and sciences - but it's because the majority of kids in Asia don't get into the math/science track. Having spoken to many Indian kids in my program at length, only the most math aligned students get to be able to follow that track. In fact, there are only 2 acceptable Indian jobs: engineer or doctor. If you aren't good enough to do either of those you are essentially left behind - very Darwinian. I assume it is similar in other countries, as not everyone is capable of doing advanced physics or calculus from a mental standpoint.

But to say US schools don't teach anything worth learning (as mkarim did) was way too far out.

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by mkarim

You are talking about elite US undergrad schools (Harvard, MIT, Stanford etc). Those don't represent US undergrad schools in general. I was talking about US undergrads IN GENERAL, not Ivy Leagues.
It's not as if there are the elite schools and then there's this precipitous drop off to the dungeons of academic disaster. And I was doing simultaneous equations in 8th grade, as well. Your point only holds if ALL kids were doing simultaneous equations in 8th grade, not just those that had been cherry picked for college tracks. Edit: And I'm not attacking you, mkarim, I'm just disagreeing. I encourage you to explain your point, I just think it's rooted in misinformation that gets spread about the "inferior" US education system.

 

[Metlin]

I would merely say that it is a numbers game -- the US has fewer people and more resources, giving people the ability to pursue a career in what they truly enjoy.

For instance, I did my undergraduate and master's in a technical area. I was good at it and I liked it, but as I grew older, I realized I was not passionate about it. These days I work for a Big 4 doing management consulting where I pretty much build decks and models -- absolutely nothing technical. In addition, I'm currently pursuing yet another graduate degree part-time in an area of social sciences that has nothing to do with engineering.

Looking back, given the chance I would have loved to study something like economics and do a minor in music theory. In the US, this is very much possible, because of the relatively fewer number of people and the fact that there is very little competition (except at a handful of top-ranked schools). Even so, you can pick a relatively less-known school with great education (5 colleges in New England, Vassar, the Claremont colleges etc) and do well.

The opportunity to pursue what you truly enjoy and have a career in it without the social pressures is something I hope my children will cherish.

 

[CunningSmeagol]

50 might be near 97th percentile. I don't remember. Isn't an 800 on the GRE math 93rd or something?

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by CunningSmeagol

50 might be near 97th percentile. I don't remember. Isn't an 800 on the GRE math 93rd or something?

91st when I took it.

50 is 98th this year, so yeah, it's probably right there.

 

[mkarim]

Originally Posted by Metlin

The opportunity to pursue what you truly enjoy and have a career in it without the social pressures is something I hope my children will cherish.

This I agree with. There are much less social pressures to pursue careers in the US and I think that's a good thing.

 

[mkarim]

Originally Posted by BC2012

Your point only holds if ALL kids were doing simultaneous equations in 8th grade, not just those that had been cherry picked for college tracks.

What makes you think only kids who are "cherry-picked" for college were studying simultaneous equations in 8th grade outside the US? Have you been through any non-US educational system to make that determination?

FYI, mine was a regular school, not an accelerated program and nobody was "cherry-picked" for college. You went to college if you got admission into one.