WAYWRN: Classic Menswear, Casual Style



cptjeff said:

SW&D has a very different outlook on clothing. Pember's fit, in terms of it's approach, would go very well in that forum. Cuffed jeans, no collar, sweater that verges on the 'anti-fit' "ideal"...

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I'm new to SF, but had assumed "MC casual" to be more a euphemism for "normal" casual clothing; as opposed to the more avant-garde styles exemplified by the guy on the far right of Fuuma's photo. I do like slightly stacked, turned up jeans - but the loose fit of the jumper is more by accident than design. Uniqlo is the only place I know selling jumpers to fit someone who's 5"11 with a 36in chest. But I'll definately watch the thread develop a bit longer before posting anything new.



cptjeff said:

I don't think 'businesswear with one item changed' is anywhere near what people think of with MC casual. The way I think about it is casual clothing from the MC mindset. SW&D has a very different outlook on clothing. Pember's fit, in terms of it's approach, would go very well in that forum. Cuffed jeans, no collar, sweater that verges on the 'anti-fit' "ideal"...

Basically, I think of MC casual as a more mature understanding of casual dressing, ranging in formality from a step or two below business casual to a step below traditional business attire. There's going to be an overlap with some SW&D in there (see Fuuma's latest post), but it's not going to overlap with the four clowns on a street corner picture.

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I think the thread struggles from a lack of consensus on what "MC casual" is. Your description sounds pretty good to me, but what I see in the thread is much more skewed toward Sartorialist-style peacocking mixed with some SF trends, built heavily on the super slim-fit look GQ has been pushing for a good while now. "Mature" isn't the word I'd use -- to me, it seems very youthful and trendy, in a way MC traditionally hasn't been. There isn't anything wrong with that, but I think trying to position it as more sophisticated or inherently superior to what the streetwear guys are doing is a bit silly. Both have their hits and misses.



DocHolliday said:

I think the thread struggles from a lack of consensus on what "MC casual" is. Your description sounds pretty good to me, but what I see in the thread is much more skewed toward Sartorialist-style peacocking mixed with some SF trends, built heavily on the super slim-fit look GQ has been pushing for a good while now. "Mature" isn't the word I'd use -- to me, it seems very youthful and trendy, in a way MC traditionally hasn't been. There isn't anything wrong with that, but I think trying to position it as more sophisticated or inherently superior to what the streetwear guys are doing is a bit silly. Both have their hits and misses.

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There's a difference between traditional clothes with a modern fit and untraditional clothes that disregard fit altogether in favor of something avant garde. SW&D stuff is often a reaction against all that stifling old people stuff, regardless of the merits of said classic items. It's very much 'all old sux, go away grandpa!' at heart, and as such, it is immature. And in rebelling against what they see as restrictive and pointless rules, they often create items or do things that look really, really stupid. Think that photo of the guy wearing a t shirt and a giant scarf wrapped halfway up his face. Nice summery look there, sparky.

And for that matter, slimmer fits aren't all that new. They're a reaction against the baggy that's been prominent for a while, but slim or even tight fits are hardly a revolutionary thing. For example, look at some of the stuff worn in the regency era. Beau Brummel and his contemporaries wore jackets and trousers that would have split if you put on 5 pounds. Their legs had absolutely no secrets. The 60's were slimmer than today. The 70's ball-crushingly so. The late 40's were a reaction against the close fitting, spare styles of the 20's and 30's. The 80's and 90's were a reaction against the 60's and 70's. Slim is hardly revolutionary.

But if you don't want to use the word mature, which I think is absolutely appropriate, how about using a definition along the lines of, "Casual use of classic clothing"? Casual Classissism?



NAMOR said:

casual friday

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

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Once again, good fit, but bad camera angle.

Scotty said:

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

?
Ok, just jeans, a polo and loafers... but I though we agree this gonna be "smart" or "business" casual, too.

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This would benefit from a polo with slimmer sleeves. If I were you and I liked that polo and wanted to wear it, I'd get them slimmed down. The bigger the sleeve, the thinner your arms seem.

Fuuma said:

The worst offense MCer do is when they have basically swap their dress slacks for raw jeans and now call this casual. If you're wearing a big ass tie, some stiff collared dress shirt, a blazer and some dress shoes you're not casual, you're confused.

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Did you see a lot of jeans with ties looks in this thread or the old WAYWRN? I don't think so. Because it looks ridiculous to an MCer as well, most of the time.

Fuuma said:

Dress shirt: Prada
Belt: Levi
Jeans: Dior Homme
Shoes: Georg Materna

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This is an awesome look. I really like it.

Pembers said:

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

What is everyone's opinion on this, for a ridiculously cold July day? I think the jumper fits me less wel than I had thought before taking a photo of it.

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My opinion is that your baggy clothes don't fit your skinny frame. This looks bad, sorry. Go shop at H&M or Land's End Canvas for S or XS sweaters. They will fit you much better without breaking the bank. Also, you won't look as "geeky"-skinny when your clothes actually fit you well.

cptjeff said:

I don't care about the codes. To an outside observer, it looks like crap. If you need to be told something is supposed to look good in order for it to look good to you, it doesn't look good. The one a few posts above looks good, and is one of the ones I would say is in the overlap between MC casual and SW&D. The clothes mostly fit (SW&D's obsession with stacking confounds me), and are neatly presented. The colors are well coordinated. It's a nice outfit.

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In the picture with 4 guys, I think most of them look pretty good, except for the far right dude who is just ridiculous. Of course, it's not a classical men's look and thus doesn't really belong in this forum. And by don't belong, I don't mean it shouldn't be posted here.

DocHolliday said:

I think the thread struggles from a lack of consensus on what "MC casual" is. Your description sounds pretty good to me, but what I see in the thread is much more skewed toward Sartorialist-style peacocking mixed with some SF trends, built heavily on the super slim-fit look GQ has been pushing for a good while now. "Mature" isn't the word I'd use -- to me, it seems very youthful and trendy, in a way MC traditionally hasn't been. There isn't anything wrong with that, but I think trying to position it as more sophisticated or inherently superior to what the streetwear guys are doing is a bit silly. Both have their hits and misses.

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I agree with you. And I don't think the SW&D forum is silly. But it is different, hence why this thread was started here. Thank you.

I just have reviewed the first post by acecow.
Looking at those pictures I think anybody can see what this is about.
If you take a look at any page of SW&D you'll see how different it is.

Hi gang,
This is a great thread. I work as a creative in a software/business casual environment, and daily wear is somewhat frustrating. MC is too dressy and SW too, well, 'street' for our corporate bland environment.

My question is, I've lost about 30lbs, going from obese to merely overweight. I'm at a size 33 waist and my new shirts look like a drag-race parachute billowing out of the rear of my pants. When can one start wearing 'slim fit' shirts? Is it better to dart? Right now I tend to wear linen pants, wingtips/loafers/bucks and a button-down. The fabric and details elevate the outfits, but fit is still a bit of a problem as I continue to lose weight.

Getting there, thanks to many months of good advice from this forum, I am
CodPiece



acecow said:

Once again, good fit, but bad camera angle..

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acecow said:

This would benefit from a polo with slimmer sleeves. If I were you and I liked that polo and wanted to wear it, I'd get them slimmed down. The bigger the sleeve, the thinner your arms seem.

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Yes, thanks. I can see that clearly in the picture, not so in real life. The sleeve hem has buttons so maybe I can fix it just moving them a little as it's not so big as they look in there.

By the way, this is what this thread needs, good criticism on fit, etc and let it roll.



CodPiece said:

Hi gang,
This is a great thread. I work as a creative in a software/business casual environment, and daily wear is somewhat frustrating. MC is too dressy and SW too, well, 'street' for our corporate bland environment.

My question is, I've lost about 30lbs, going from obese to merely overweight. I'm at a size 33 waist and my new shirts look like a drag-race parachute billowing out of the rear of my pants. When can one start wearing 'slim fit' shirts? Is it better to dart? Right now I tend to wear linen pants, wingtips/loafers/bucks and a button-down. The fabric and details elevate the outfits, but fit is still a bit of a problem as I continue to lose weight.

Getting there, thanks to many months of good advice from this forum, I am
CodPiece

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There are 3 things about OTR shirts (when collar size is held constant) that prevent me from wearing them:

1. Very low armholes on almost all brands.
2. Sleeves and cuffs not exactly right.
3. The position of the shoulder seam.

Unlike a suit jacket, all 3 can be fixed if the shirt was baggy to begin with (as most OTR shirts are, which is another problem, but easier to fix so not as crucial). However, fixing them literally means re-cutting the shirt. It's not a reasonable investment of money or time. Now, why are those things important?

1. High armholes allow you to lift or extend your hands without pulling on the fabric at the waist, thus allowing the shirt to stay neatly tucked-in after hours and hours of wear.
2. Correct length of sleeves and width of cuffs allows you to
a. look neat
b. have the same amount of cuff showing in all your suit jackets, granted you wear any
3. The shoulder seam should be at the shoulder bone before the shoulder slope starts. This makes you seem thinner, leaner, with broader and less sloping shoulders.
4. The correct chest, waist and hip measurements once again make you appear slimmer and more muscular as well as help keep the shirt neatly tucked-in.

What's the point of my argument?! Go MTM or bespoke. You can choose your fabrics, collars that suit your face, options like MOP buttons, etc. Like they say: "once you go MTM, you can never go back."

P.S. If you're still losing weight, then just dart your existing shirts for now. Go custom when your weight has stabilized.



CodPiece said:

My question is, I've lost about 30lbs, going from obese to merely overweight. I'm at a size 33 waist and my new shirts look like a drag-race parachute billowing out of the rear of my pants. When can one start wearing 'slim fit' shirts? Is it better to dart?

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First, congratulations on the weight loss. Second, kudos on the excellent username. Third, dart the shirts you really like so that you can continue to wear them despite the weight loss. (That's assuming, of course, that they still fit you in the neck and shoulders.) Toss the rest and replace. Every shirtmaker has a different notion of what slim fit means, so you're going to have to try on a LOT of shirts. Might not be worth doing until you've stabilized at your fighting weight.

Keep up the good work.



acecow said:

1. High armholes allow you to lift or extend your hands without pulling on the fabric at the waist, thus allowing the shirt to stay neatly tucked-in after hours and hours of wear.
...
3. The shoulder seam should be at the shoulder bone before the shoulder slope starts. This makes you seem thinner, leaner, with broader and less sloping shoulders.

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Wow, thank you acecow! I had never considered these details.

Threadbearer, thanks for the kind words of encouragement.

I wish I could begin to tell you how much I've learned from this forum, but space does not allow. I've always had a good eye for quality (champagne taste and beer budget, as my mother loves to say), but the fine points of fit were elusive. Being able to view so many fits and body shapes (along with finding a brutally honest tailor) has been a great learning experience.

That's why I like this thread so much, it's taking the basics and fine-tuning for the most pleasing proportions. I love jackets, but no one wears them in my business. That means you're much more exposed and vulnerable to a badly cut pair of trousers.

I hate business casual; hate it hate it hateithateit. Everything shows, particularly my roll top, moobs and computer-slouch shoulders. Great guidance in the various subfora that has been immensely helpful, thank you.

Me? Right now I'm concentrating on body weight, clothing fit and posture. After that, I aspire to:

gnatty8


NOBD (for me, this is outstanding; love the jeans and monks)


Fuuma does look truly great in this fit, but I'm 20 years too old to look this good.



And sincerely wish I could pull off ANYTHING by nildawg3. That man has aplomb.



NAMOR said:

really? thats what comes to mind when you see a guy that is wearing gray dress slacks and dress shirt? really?

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I've come to see anyone wearing a tie without a jacket as just having misplaced their jacket. It's annoying, actually.

I'd much rather see a jacket with no tie.



cptjeff said:

I don't think 'businesswear with one item changed' is anywhere near what people think of with MC casual. The way I think about it is casual clothing from the MC mindset. SW&D has a very different outlook on clothing. Pember's fit, in terms of it's approach, would go very well in that forum. Cuffed jeans, no collar, sweater that verges on the 'anti-fit' "ideal"...

Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? Is this what MC thinks SW&D likes? A sweater that fits like the extra skin left after liposuction and medicore fitting jeans with horrible sloppy cuffs? No wonder why MC has such a negative warped view of SW&D.



james_timothy said:

I've come to see anyone wearing a tie without a jacket as just having misplaced their jacket. It's annoying, actually.
I'd much rather see a jacket with no tie.

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+1 Unfortunately, in my profession (teaching) very few men bother to wear ties, and even fewer wear jackets, with or without ties.