Barry Bonds

Thracozaag · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by WSW

I agree that body armor is often overlooked when it comes to baseball players and that it also gives an advantage to the hitter, since he doesn't have to worry about brushbacks and chin music and can crowd the plate, decreasing the amount of room the pitcher has to work with.

I've seen Bonds actually get HIT with pitches that would be considered strikes because of this advantage.

koj

lawyerdad · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

I never said Aaron wasnt amongst the very best, he just isnt the BEST, that's Either Ruth or Barry.

Fair point. I may have been thrown because that sentence of yours is a little off, due to an apparently missing word. But going back and reading it again, it's clear I misread it the first time. My apologies for inadvertently mischaracterizing what you said on that point.

Film Noir Buff · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by CTGuy

1. I don't understand how anyone can sit here and claim there is some sort of doubt about whether Bonds used steriods or not. He admitted that he did, but "didn't know what it was."

There's no admission here without scienter, "used" means he intended to use it. Bonds was given a cream for swelling or joint pain by a trainer and trusted him.

Originally Posted by CTGuy

2. By all accounts from sports writers Bonds is a world class dick even in a world where massive egos are the norm. None of us have actually met Bonds (?) so this is really the best I have to go on. I don't particularly care about these silly records anyways-- but the fact that Bonds is such an uninspiring d-bag makes me care even less. Hank Aaron was a far more inspirational figure IMHO.

Unh, most of the sports media are world class, sanctimonious illiterates who are very jealous of the athletes, that doesnt stop me from devouring just about every sports rag out there but they arent exactly honest and fair. Theyre interested in dirt, and if doesnt exist, theyll keep suggesting it until it becomes tangible.

Originally Posted by CTGuy

3. Bonds' record will hopefully not stand for too long and this whole contraversy will be over. A-Rod (who I am not a huge fan of only because I am a Red Sox fan) already has 500 HRs. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long.

Red Sox fan, eh? That explains a lot.

The way things are going for the Yankees lately, A-Rod will probably be a Red Sox next year. Isnt Canseco trying to suggest A-Rod is/was on steroids too?

Film Noir Buff · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Fair point. I may have been thrown because that sentence of yours is a little off, due to an apparently missing word.

Well, understand I dont write much

I know i write complex sentences, sorry, not good for sports chat.

Actually, it's very hard when you try to describe differences amongst so many great players and if sometimes it seems I am brushing aside one player to extol another, then that isnt my true intent. Aaron is one of baseball's immortals, I have a mitchell and ness throwback jersey of his and he will always be a part of baseball lore. Bonds is the very best. He may have used steroids intentionally, he may not have and we may never know the truth but after he retires there wont be a phenom like him for a while. A-Rod maybe, but like Griffey Jr., we'll have to wait and see if he blossoms or fades.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

But going back and reading it again, it's clear I misread it the first time. My apologies for inadvertently mischaracterizing what you said on that point.

Not a big deal besides, I enjoy "pompous bullshit" as much as the next guy, j/k, cant resist, must...learn...irony...doesnt...travel...well...on...web.

hchamp · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by zjpj83

OMG, that's the funniest thing I've read all day. To hear you trying to convince yourself is just priceless

Bonds received about 1200 more walks than Aaron. Had he not been walked he would've had about 360 more hits (based on .300 batting average). A little more than 25% of Barry's hits have been homers (actually, 25.7%). So theoretically, Bonds was denied a chance to hit another 90 home runs because teams pitched around him. Well, guess what? Approx 90 homers is the purported advantage steroids gave to Bonds (based on the difference between his actual output over 2000-2004 and his pre-2000 average, adjusted for the strike-shortened 1994 season).

So steroids, if he took them and IF they made such a difference, merely offset the disadvantage of being walked more often than any other player, because he was head and shoulders better than them.

edmorel · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by Brad

Fosse had to know Rose had one gear and didn't know how to play any other way.

It's funny how people give Rose a pass on that type of dirty **** and yet when someone else does it, they get tarred and feathered.

whnay. · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by edmorel

It's funny how people give Rose a pass on that type of dirty **** and yet when someone else does it, they get tarred and feathered.

******* white people.

Brad · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

There's no admission here without scienter, "used" means he intended to use it. Bonds was given a cream for swelling or joint pain by a trainer and trusted him.

As far as I know, "scienter" has to do with a fraudulent state of mind, not what Bonds is being investigated for. Scienter has nothing to do with this situation.

We members of style forum are not a court of law. We can think whatever we want about what he did or didn't do, without abiding by the Rules of Evidence.

Why would you rub a cream for joint pain/swelling on your balls? Does that make any sense? Why wouldn't you, uh, I don't know, rub it on the affected joint? No offense, but to believe that he really thought whatever he was rubbing on his nuts was some sort of joint relief is a bit like believing in the Tooth Fairy.

edmorel · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by whnay.

******* white people.

I know, I know. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

Originally Posted by Brad

Why would you rub a cream for joint pain/swelling on your balls?

I once rubbed Preparation H on my balls just for ***** and giggles and they turned the size of grapes.

Brad · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by edmorel

It's funny how people give Rose a pass on that type of dirty **** and yet when someone else does it, they get tarred and feathered.

I'm not giving anyone a pass. It's not dirty, the guy just played hard. How would you have had him play? "Listen Pete, you should really play nice with the other kids."

lawyerdad · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by hchamp

Bonds received about 1200 more walks than Aaron. Had he not been walked he would've had about 360 more hits (based on .300 batting average). A little more than 25% of Barry's hits have been homers (actually, 25.7%). So theoretically, Bonds was denied a chance to hit another 90 home runs because teams pitched around him. Well, guess what? Approx 90 homers is the purported advantage steroids gave to Bonds (based on the difference between his actual output over 2000-2004 and his pre-2000 average, adjusted for the strike-shortened 1994 season).

So steroids, if he took them and IF they made such a difference, merely offset the disadvantage of being walked more often than any other player, because he was head and shoulders better than them.

His batting average is in part a result of his good eye and selectiveness. Leaving intentional walks aside, you can't assume that Bonds would have maintained the same average if he weren't as selective a hitter. Indeed, that supposition is almost certainly wrong.

edmorel · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by Brad

I'm not giving anyone a pass. It's not dirty, the guy just played hard. How would you have had him play? "Listen Pete, you should really play nice with the other kids."

No but how about, "listen Pete why don't you stop being such a prick and instead of barreling over the catcher in a meaningless exhibition game, when you are running at full steam, he can't see you and you can end the guy's career, maybe try sliding around the guy". Rose would do the same **** to break up double plays, he'd barrel the second baseman over. I forgot who it was that did something similar a few years back, either Manny Ramirez or Sandy Alomar, and the announcers were ready to lynch the guy.

lawyerdad · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

I know i write complex sentences, sorry, not good for sports chat.

Actually, what you wrote was: "There really isnt a lot of current that Aaaron was the best."

Complexity is fine. Complete sentences might help, though.

Film Noir Buff · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by Brad

As far as I know, "scienter" has to do with a fraudulent state of mind, not what Bonds is being investigated for. Scienter has nothing to do with this situation.

I dont think scienter has to go as far as fraud. And it does make a big difference.

Originally Posted by Brad

We members of style forum are not a court of law. We can think whatever we want about what he did or didn't do, without abiding by the Rules of Evidence.

Fine, no problem, only dont reference the legal system as authority or bring up the legality of the substance and please disclose from the outset that you just want to think whatever you want to think so i cant mistake any of it for a rational, fair minded discussion.

And i dont think that viewpoint is limited to Styleforum, I believe that most of the country that's involved in condeming Bonds just wants to believe that he used steroids because they just want to believe what they want to believe.

Originally Posted by Brad

Why would you rub a cream for joint pain/swelling on your balls? Does that make any sense? Why wouldn't you, uh, I don't know, rub it on the affected joint?

Depending on the situation it might not take that much convincing

Originally Posted by Brad

No offense, but to believe that he really thought whatever he was rubbing on his nuts was some sort of joint relief is a bit like believing in the Tooth Fairy.

Very well put.

Film Noir Buff · Aug 8, 2007

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Actually, what you wrote was: "There really isnt a lot of current that Aaaron was the best."

Complexity is fine. Complete sentences might help, though.

Ahhh, I meant "current" as in electric current, not as in "currently". I could use full sentences but then where would all the enjoyable misunderstandings arise from?

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