Barry Bonds

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

That's interesting about PR, because Bonds is supposed to treat people around him quite well and there were comments that Aaron was rather crude with people off the field. Perhaps Bonds is a "dick" because the media wanted him to look that way and Aaron is a darling because the media wanted him to look that way.

I was under the impression that Aaron was a bit cold around the time he broke Ruth's record because he received loads of death threats. Think about it. A black man in the Deep South about to break a mythical record set by an oft revered white man. I've read that he would not ride in a convertible then for fear of his life, and still won't to this day. His daughter, who was in school at Tennesee at that time, also had to have a bodyguard at all times. Barry hasn't, to my knowledge, experienced similar treatement in his run for the record.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

I stand against witch burning. Maybe a lot of people dont, but that would mean a lot of people have the mentality of medieval peasants; superstitious and prone to mob violence based on the last idea placed into their head by someone..evil?

I stand against disingenuous, pompous bullshit. Taking a contrarian position does not necessarily make you an independent thinker, nor does it make those who think differently witch hunters. You could well just be wrong.

Your general observations regarding the ability and inclination of "sports journalists" to influence public perception of sports stars are valid and well-stated. My impressions of Bonds are based primarily on statements I have actually heard him utter, or second-hand non-media accounts that I happen to consider credible.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

I stand against disingenuous, pompous bullshit.

I rather doubt that or you wouldnt post so much.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Taking a contrarian position does not necessarily make you an independent thinker, nor does it make those who think differently witch hunters. You could well just be wrong.

There's a lot of bandwagon Barry bashers. I am an independent thinker irrespective of my position on monsieur Bonds and though I could be wrong, all I am asking for is proof which my fellow countrymen seem to demand for some and not for others.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Your general observations regarding the ability and inclination of "sports journalists" to influence public perception of sports stars are valid and well-stated. My impressions of Bonds are based primarily on statements I have actually heard him utter, or second-hand non-media accounts that I happen to consider credible.

I've never met Bonds but i have no reason to consider him non credible.

 

[aportnoy]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

There's a lot of bandwagon Barry bashers. I am an independent thinker irrespective of my position on monsieur Bonds and though I could be wrong, all I am asking for is proof which my fellow countrymen seem to demand for some and not for others.


Do you ever actually read the nonsense that you post?

I've never met Bonds but i have no reason to consider him non credible.

Funny we've never met you and yet we are convinced you lack all credibility. See, it's not so hard to do if you put your mind to it.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Have you actually read Moneyball? The point of the book was not that if a team follows the described approach they should win it all. The point of the book was to highlight the way in which Beane's approach allowed him to exploit inefficiencies in the marketplace and find "undervalued" players, thereby allowing a team to outperform relative to its budget (e.g., have the 19th-highest budget but compile the 5th-best regular season record). Nothing in Moneyball is inconsistent with the notion that the super-rich teams are still going to be able to monopolize the very best players and thus have the best chance of winning the WS.
The Yankees would win every year if it were about past numbers. One of their problems is that Steinbrenner/Cashman tend to chase and overpay people based on the prior season, rather than making an intelligent decision about who prospectively will best fill their team's needs. Statistics do provide a pretty good retrospective measure of what a player contributed. Sure there are "intangibles", but their importance is exaggerated, often by people trying to argue a point not supported by the numbers.
Without meaning to suggest that racism wasn't a terrible burden for Jackie Robinson to carry, he retired at a fairly reasonable age upon being traded to the hated Giants. I'm not sure your characterization of his reasons for retiring "early" (see Ted Williams, who certainly could be said to have retired "early") is accurate.
My impression is that Mantle, who of course was wonderfully gifted, had an "it" factor in part because he was a socially flamboyant white guy who played for the Yankees. You're just dead wrong in asserting that Aaron was not among the very best. People who played with/against him certainly do. Nobody else's opinion (mine included) matters for ****.


I did read it, I also understood it and I believe we owe Beane thanks for creating an extension of the Yankees farm system. The sports age now honors one thing, the championship. Anything less, the media and most of the fans consider an abject failure.


Moneyball is a waste of time except that it isolates talent on the cheap and develops it for wealthier teams.

I never said Aaron wasnt amongst the very best, he just isnt the BEST, that's Either Ruth or Barry.

 

[life_interrupts]

First, kudos to Barry for breaking the record. Steroids don't do anything for hand-eye coordination and baseball IQ. The man can play ball, abrasive personality and questionable morality aside. The King is dead, love live the King.
One last thing (from me) about Aaron: several players have played in the majors for 20 years, but none of them approach Aaron's numbers. He played 23 years, and never hit more than 45 homers in a season, but he averaged nearly 33 HRs/year. This includes his last few years, which were in the 20s and below. Mays never did that, nor did Mantle, or most of the truly transcendent players everyone tosses out.


And the fact that he never had the monster seasons speaks to his consistent greatness. Mantle actually said Aaron was the greatest player of his generation and would never get the credit he deserves.

 

[wpeters]

Originally Posted by Brad

It's my understanding that Fosse was in the wrong when Rose ran him over; the catcher cannot stand in the 3rd base line. Catchers are still bowled over and there is no rule prohibiting it. If you're not spatially aware enough to realize you're in the base line, then tough ****.

The controversy largely centers around the fact that it happened in an All-Star game. You don't see catchers being run over, or players going high into second base in that exhibition game.

 

[Thracozaag]

Originally Posted by whnay.

Hitting a baseball has a lot more to do than just strength. In fact strength is a minor componet of what actually makes a prolific home run hitter. Batter intelligence, hand-eye coordination, and swing mechanics are far more important. Outside the realm of steroids, strength enhancements are used by every major league, minor league, and college team in America. From what I experienced on the field and read in reports there is no effective measure as to whether pitchers or hitters "benefit" more from these enhancements.

I'm actually not offended on moral grounds to what Bonds has done to enhance his already very formidable abilities through steroids, because, well, baseball's policy towards steroids. What does offend me, and what IS illegal is all the bodyarmour Bonds wears, especially the elbow device, which he's somehow managed to keep on after using to rehabilitate an injury he sustained in 1992. If any other major leaguer tried to wear such a device (which DOES give a very big advantage in improving the swing plane by keeping the elbow straight and using more torque) they'd be immediately thrown out of a game.

koji

 

[Brad]

Originally Posted by wpeters

The controversy largely centers around the fact that it happened in an All-Star game. You don't see catchers being run over, or players going high into second base in that exhibition game.

Fosse had to know Rose had one gear and didn't know how to play any other way.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by life_interrupts

Steroids don't do anything for hand-eye coordination and baseball IQ.

True, but reportedly HGH slows the degrading of hand-eye coordination that otherwise would occur in those of us of a certain age. I think "steroids" is just kind of a catch-all phrase in this context.

 

[CTGuy]

1. I don't understand how anyone can sit here and claim there is some sort of doubt about whether Bonds used steriods or not. He admitted that he did, but "didn't know what it was."

2. By all accounts from sports writers Bonds is a world class dick even in a world where massive egos are the norm. None of us have actually met Bonds (?) so this is really the best I have to go on. I don't particularly care about these silly records anyways-- but the fact that Bonds is such an uninspiring d-bag makes me care even less. Hank Aaron was a far more inspirational figure IMHO.

3. Bonds' record will hopefully not stand for too long and this whole contraversy will be over. A-Rod (who I am not a huge fan of only because I am a Red Sox fan) already has 500 HRs. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Brad

Fosse had to know Rose had one gear and didn't know how to play any other way.

I think that's right. Fosse reacted the way (I assume) his baseball instincts told him to, reaching to get the throw and go for the tag. Rose reacted the way his instincts told him to as he approached the plate. One may as well suggest Fosse should have not gone after the throw up the line, but instead should have watched it skip to the backstop and done a goofy toreador routine as Rose passed by like it was a Harlem Globetrotters game or something.

 

[WSW]

Originally Posted by Thracozaag

I'm actually not offended on moral grounds to what Bonds has done to enhance his already very formidable abilities through steroids, because, well, baseball's policy towards steroids. What does offend me, and what IS illegal is all the bodyarmour Bonds wears, especially the elbow device, which he's somehow managed to keep on after using to rehabilitate an injury he sustained in 1992. If any other major leaguer tried to wear such a device (which DOES give a very big advantage in improving the swing plane by keeping the elbow straight and using more torque) they'd be immediately thrown out of a game.

koji

I agree that body armor is often overlooked when it comes to baseball players and that it also gives an advantage to the hitter, since he doesn't have to worry about brushbacks and chin music and can crowd the plate, decreasing the amount of room the pitcher has to work with.

I hope ARod breaks the record, so we no longer have to have all these debates on whether Bonds cheated or not. The greatest sports record would be pure and clean again.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Thracozaag

I'm actually not offended on moral grounds to what Bonds has done to enhance his already very formidable abilities through steroids, because, well, baseball's policy towards steroids. What does offend me, and what IS illegal is all the bodyarmour Bonds wears, especially the elbow device, which he's somehow managed to keep on after using to rehabilitate an injury he sustained in 1992. If any other major leaguer tried to wear such a device (which DOES give a very big advantage in improving the swing plane by keeping the elbow straight and using more torque) they'd be immediately thrown out of a game.

koji

Ha, I remember hearing how back in the 70's Ted Hendricks, the Oakland linebacker, had suffered a fractured forearm and played a few games with a cast. Reportedly, he found that he really liked having a hard blub at the end of his arm can kept the cast on far longer than was necessary, until the league forced him to remove it.

 

[zjpj83]

"Remove me from the record books because I am a big stinky ***** steroid-taking jackass" hahahaha