Kabbaz Shirts

Originally Posted by MrRogers

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PS- Is Manton the same guy who published a menswear book a while back? If so you really present yourself like a jackass with threads like these.
Banned already? What did you do? You have to be a real jackass to get banned from this site.

I suppose it completely escaped you that I agree with what you wrote about Alex and his obligations to explain himself. Anyway, it seems that you are in the Nantucket Red camp, thinking that I have some obligation to be dour and serious all the time, like some sort of clothing forum Walter Cronkite. Happily, I don't answer to either one of you.

Originally Posted by MrRogers

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But I also see no reason to assume his shirts are really that great either.

Who's "assuming" that? I make an assessment based on firsthand experience. So has Steve B. and CPATailor. You and others choose not to believe us, or to insist that three assessment is not enough, or whatever.

You may as well ask why anything costs so much. Every maker of every conceivable product sells his wares at higher price than his costs to make them. Is there a morally correct formula? Two times costs? Perhaps it costs Alex $375 to make a shirt; I don't know. I do know that he pays his employess a lot more than other garment workers in New York get paid, and also provides other benefits that I won't specify, absent his permission to specify. I also know that he spends more on raw materials like interlining, buttons and thread. There are a number of things he does that other shirtmakers don't do that add to his costs.

For anything to cost anything, two conditions have to be met: Someone has to be willing to pay that price. And the maker has to be willing to supply the product at that price. End of story. Kabbaz clearly meets both conditions, since he stays in business. Price is not determined by the costs of production.

less yapping, better pics please

Originally Posted by Manton

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Who's "assuming" that?

I said that I see no reason to assume why his shirts are any good. You aren't me. You own his shirts; I don't.

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

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Again, you seem to want to reduce this to a simple equation where price correlates to production cost. But I think that's a very naive way of looking at luxury goods. In terms of high-end RTW, it's conventional wisdom here that that quality does not increase proportionately to price. Why should Alex be held to a different standard? There are no materials on this Earth that would make me consider a shirt "worth" $1,000 -- not even one that's 100 percent Bijan. But Alex should charge what he can, I say. And bully for those who want and can afford to buy his shirts.

If you're really that worried about value per dollar, I fear high-end clothing may prove a poor hobby.

In short: no.

I very cleary acknowledge in my post that price correlates with much more than production cost. Did you miss the part where I talk about many elements contributing to price? Some expensive things are more expensive for more obvious reasons. It's not so obvious why Kabbaz shirts are so expensive; you more or less said the same thing in the post I replied to.

If you cannot imagine what could make a Kabbaz shirt 'worth' $1,000, than you and I are more in agreement than you represent.

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

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If anything, it seems like AK goes out of his way to be extra transparent in his shirtmaking process, to the annoyance of certain posters who see it as only shilling.

The description of his shirtmaking process in the link you've provided still doesn't make it apparent why his shirts cost twice as much as the world's other contenders for 'best shirt'. It's all done by machine--so why so pricey? I specifically maintained the possibility that the machine-sewing is done exceptionally well. It's just that exceptional machine-sewing is less obviously exceptional (and hence, costly) than hand-sewing.

If I recall correctly from one of AK's old posts, the client is also hosted at at cottage for a weekend while he conducts further fittings. So this service is also built into the price.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Anyway, it seems that you are in the Nantucket Red camp, thinking that I have some obligation to be dour and serious all the time, like some sort of clothing forum Walter Cronkite. Happily, I don't answer to either one of you.

Wow, you sure read a lot into my comments. I certainly don't think you're under any obligation to do anything in particular. I just thought that since you're one of the few forum members who own Kabbaz shirts, it would be nice of you to offer an evaluation of the construction details with some photographs. Others have expressed a similar interest, and if anyone's qualified for such a project, it's you. Of course, if you don't feel like doing it, nobody 's stopping you.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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Honestly it bothers me a bit that Alex does not answer the questions here. He is a member here and could give us more information on his shirts.

I suspect there are some good reasons for the shirt price but I would like more info.
Good call, AF. I can't tell you how bothered I am that he hasn't come over here to talk about his pricing to people who can't afford his shirts and who can't be bothered to do a simple search (the results of which would tell you even his expected margin).

Just thinking about this in terms of any other industry is laughable.

How many businesses will, on demand, disclose how they arrive at their prices and how much they expect to make per transaction? And of those, how many businesses will bother to defend those prices to people who have no intention of buying the product? And of those businesses how many would take the time to do it again if some more people came along and wanted to hear the same explanation but didn't want to take about 20 min to figure it out?

Personally, I can't afford Alex's shirts. They're nice shirts but I'm okay with that. I am a pretty awesome client but I think Alex is also okay with that (if he's not, PM me and we can set up an appt for some subsidized shirts).

Even if I were stacking the sort of paper I'd have to be to afford Alex's shirts, I don't know if he'd be at the top of my dream shirtmaker list anymore. I imagine that Charvet or Sivligia could do something similar at a better price. But that's about as important as the results of the top five celebrity hookups thread.

I have no suspicions about Alex or his prices. The fair price for something is where someone will lift your offer often enough for you to stay in the business. Alex's prices have obviously done that. It would be nice to be able to afford someone of that caliber without travelling very far from home but I certainly don't hold it against someone for charging as much as he can get away with - when it's a luxury item and the target audience is very much able to pay.

I'd be more willing to believe that this line of 'inquiry' was based on something more that Alex's internet popularity if there were similar threads about William Westmancott , for example.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I said that I see no reason to assume why his shirts are any good. You aren't me. You own his shirts; I don't.

No one is asking -- or has ever asked -- "you" to "assume" that AK shirts are good. Some people have tried to respond to your questions about AK shirts, only to be told that our responses are woefully inadequate, possibly dishonest, and motivated by greed. The only person who cares what you think of AK shirts is you. I used to care, when I thought you were a reasonable person asking honest questions, but that ended some four days ago.

Originally Posted by Nantucket Red

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I just thought that since you're one of the few forum members who own Kabbaz shirts, it would be nice of you to offer an evaluation of the construction details

I've offered a detailed written explanation of what I think of AK shirts. I have nothing to add to what I have written. It goes into construction details and the fitting process at some length. I gather it has not satisfied you. I mildly wish that it had. Oh well. For you to keep insisting that no discussion of AK quality has ever been attempted puts you firmly in the Bresch-mafoofan category.

with some photographs

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I posted a picture in this thread. I don't have a good enough camera to post close-ups of the needle work.

Originally Posted by Cantabrigian

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I'd be more willing to believe that this line of 'inquiry' was based on something more that Alex's internet popularity if there were similar threads about William Westmancott , for example.

Or Fioravanti. He charges $6,000 for a suit that he doesn't personally make, and that uses a machine padded canvas. WTF? Why aren't we bashing the crap out of him day after day, and demanding that he come here and justify himself?

Originally Posted by Naturlaut II

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I can't believe this has gone on for 10 pages.

Just wait until the discussion moves to whether or not Kabbaz will or won't and should or shouldn't offer black shirts...

Now I understand how a johnapril is created.