Citizens On Patrol Thread...forum rules you would like to see

Originally Posted by MrG

Click to expand...

I disagree that this is a problem. The in-joke stuff was going on when I first started posting, and it never bothered me. It's just a part of any place where people interact with one another for a long period of time. Hang around for a bit, and you'll end up a part of it as well. I think it's a sign of a healthy community.
Inside jokes/Inner Serkle stuff is funny, and should be encouraged b/c there's something about this site that really encourages some of us to be more than just "e-friends." That shouldn't be stifled. But when 8 out of 10 threads (even outside of DT) have no content at all and are full of layer upon layer of inside jokes that are impossible to navigate unless you've been here for months, then that's a problem. We need a way to get n00bs to feel like this is the kind of site where you can come in and be accepted and, to use our favorite analogy, grab a seat at the bar and toss a few back with new friends. It shouldn't just be all of the SF old-timers all in a big circle around the bar, blocking anyone else from even getting a beer.

Originally Posted by kwilkinson

Click to expand...

Inside jokes/Inner Serkle stuff is funny, and should be encouraged b/c there's something about this site that really encourages some of us to be more than just "e-friends." That shouldn't be stifled. But when 8 out of 10 threads (even outside of DT) have no content at all and are full of layer upon layer of inside jokes that are impossible to navigate unless you've been here for months, then that's a problem. We need a way to get n00bs to feel like this is the kind of site where you can come in and be accepted and, to use our favorite analogy, grab a seat at the bar and toss a few back with new friends. It shouldn't just be all of the SF old-timers all in a big circle around the bar, blocking anyone else from even getting a beer.
Good point. I suppose there's a question of a degree that I didn't fully consider. It's one thing to have a site where there's a strong contingent of people who really get along, but you don't want to be exclusionary. That said, I wonder how you'd regulate this. Maybe we could all have our member titles state the date we finally got in on the circle jerk. That way noobs would know that they, too, can eventually get the joke.

Originally Posted by F. Corbera

Click to expand...

[...]
At least in the Mens Clothing forum, n00b threads in the last year have been dominated by socks, by spammers, and by the dull or dull witted.
[...]

Originally Posted by Matt

Click to expand...

[...]
And as per TransMod, feel free to report any socks that you see or suspect to me personally, and I will look into that.
[...]

QFI.

Are socks really that harmful by default, btw? Obviously, if they are used to circumvent a ban, shill, or bump in B/S. But otherwise? People use them to play games, but whether you do it with one account or seven, what's the difference? The old Vox probably has 15000 posts dedicated to playing games.
After all, everybody here (with some notable exceptions) is just playing a role, displaying a persona.
So imho it's not the sock per se that is wrong, but what you do with it.

Seriously, I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. If the old-timers want their forum back, they should take it back. Create insightful posts/threads, and everybody benefits. Actively encourage such behaviour by others, and you will get a better forum in return.
The DTness and CEness of the forum comes directly from other posters' encouraging prolific posters in these subfora.
Don't post in a garbage thread, and the OP might think twice about starting another one.
People that post on SF crave attention, some more-so than others. Attention, therefore, is your own little reward program.

I wonder how much of the old-timers' disappointment with the forum has to do with technology,
i.e., do they use the thread subscription feature? do they exclude the 'garbage' forums from "new posts"? do they hover over a thread to get the tool-tip snippet or do they click on anything whose title looks promising?

Wrt noob bashing, I think it falls under common rules for decency that should apply to all posts.
They just need to be enforced.
Some snark is good as there should be some sort of discouragement for inane posts. New people who have a potential for sticking around usually are people who lurk(ed). People who lurk are the ones that understand how vicious the forum can be, so they make sure they have all the i-s dotted and t-s crossed, before they post a question. The inside jokes derided above can actually be an encouragement to some people. Even though they don't understand them now, they strive to understand them, they research forum history, etc, they want to be part of the in-crowd. Reference the "What was the Carlo Franco thing all about" thread, btw started by current forum boogie-man MS.
Cliquishness can have its own reward system. If it were easy, if there were no learning curve, what would be the reward of making it into the clique?
I think some kind of restrictions on where and when newbies can post is not a bad idea. In particular, not having the ability to post a new thread for some time could be useful. Or maybe not even post in arbitrary threads, while, at the same time, giving them an outlet, e.g., the 'quick question/answer' thread. Some more charitable members can take care of this thread while the more snarky ones can stay away.
Having said that, by no means are only new members the ones who start all these uninteresting threads. Does Conne really have to start a new thread every time he shakes the hand of a female human being, or drops his sandwich, or whoknowswhat?
Again, this is all about attention and encouragement, not a question of rules.

^ I agree with quite a bit of this.

Originally Posted by Hombre Secreto

Click to expand...

If it were to be isolated to specific threads it would't be that bad. I just don't get how they allow boobs and asses, but not the bush.
I'm pretty sure nipples aren't allowed. Aren't the appreciation threads supposed to be PG-13ish?

One more thing I'd like to see is an end to the acceptance of the far-too-common misogyny. It's one thing to talk about attractive women and trying to get laid, and I'm not advocating for the sterilization of talk regarding females, but the attitude towards women here can often get flat-out disgusting. It would be nice if misogyny were met with the same distaste as racism and homophobia.

Originally Posted by BDC2823

Click to expand...

I agree and they should search, but I also agree that the noob bashing is pretty lame and a detriment to the site. When I first joined I didn't know **** about clothes. That's why I came here because I wanted to learn. I didn't just start posting noob threads but spent about 6 months reading threads and going through past threads before making a post. That was my way but others have theirs. I just don't think that if a noob posts and asks a question, even if covered ad nauseum, the next 15 posts should be needless ridicule.

Plus I stayed for the other forums. I rarely venture into MC now. One because my income took a nosedive so I can't afford to buy the stuff I did via the B/S forums a couple years ago, and two, because I find more value out of the other subforums. So I guess this goes back to value of the other forums as noted in previous replies. I find them really valuable. I don't post much in MC anymore but in the other subforums and without those ones and if this was only about clothing, I probably wouldn't have interacted with some great people. I consider KWilkinson a friend and talk with him regularly outside of SF and without the other subforums, I doubt he or I would've stayed. That goes with guys like Thomas as well. I even play video games online just about daily with a handful of members from SF like Mauro, bdeuce, John Galt, John, etc. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think everything is going well even if some refinement is needed, but the site evolving to what it has become, and not just clothing only, has been a good thing.

As far as noobs starting threads, that's why there are stickies on top of the page. I tried to answer as many questions as possible in SW&D, and I think regular MCers do the same in their respectable threads. The amount of noobs threads such as "celebrity wearing X" or "does y look good on me" or "where can I get Z" makes it that hard to actually find useful information. For example I ventured into MC last week and there were 3 threads started by noobs on Menswear house vs Jo.S Bank, completely pointless. If noobs actually used this site with all of its information, no one will get flamed.

I really think there should be a rule with regard to noobs starting threads, either post count or the amount of time spent on the forum.

I think the B&S is getting better, but this is not a dump site. I see people selling things that either needed to be donated or thrown out. Again this clusters the useful threads. I think the banning without price drop warning worked great, but people are circumventing the rules again. I don't even feel like reporting those threads anymore, because I don't think the rules are enforced enough.

I don't participate in CE, but CE and DT are one of the main reasons I am on SF nowadays.

Originally Posted by MrG

Click to expand...

One more thing I'd like to see is an end to the acceptance of the far-too-common misogyny. It's one thing to talk about attractive women and trying to get laid, and I'm not advocating for the sterilization of talk regarding females, but the attitude towards women here can often get flat-out disgusting. It would be nice if misogyny were met with the same distaste as racism and homophobia.

I'm going to leave the cheap and obvious jokes in the holster and just agree with you.

Originally Posted by MrG

Click to expand...

One more thing I'd like to see is an end to the acceptance of the far-too-common misogyny. It's one thing to talk about attractive women and trying to get laid, and I'm not advocating for the sterilization of talk regarding females, but the attitude towards women here can often get flat-out disgusting. It would be nice if misogyny were met with the same distaste as racism and homophobia.

a hearty plus one from me on this.

to be fair, however, I think we could have cracked down on a lot of this just by smacking down the likes of AB and MS a long f*cking time ago. Those two jokers are highly culpable for the fifth-grade locker room mentality around here. I'm all for a bit of toilet humor and silliness but there's a real nasty edge to both of them that has generally been tolerated for far, far too long. They're obviously not the first or only offenders, but they're definitely the worst.

Originally Posted by Redwoood

Click to expand...

Does Conne really have to start a new thread every time he shakes the hand of a female human being, or drops his sandwich, or whoknowswhat?

Yes. Connefail is gold for DT.

By the way, I agree with other parts of your post.

TBH, I don't think this site will turn anyone away if that particular person is determined to stick around and actually learn about clothes/fashion/style. Take SZ for example, faust rules with an iron fist, but new members still join and visit the site and participate.

The only noob thing that genuinely annoys me is when someone starts 15 threads on their first day asking well-hashed-out questions. I find that easy to ignore though.

I don't think there are going to be any silver bullet answers to any of the problems we have identified. The only real answer is probably that we all need to realize that we have something good here, that it could be lost or devalued, and we need to make an effort not to let that happen. Which means be more careful about what we post and less tolerant of garbage from others.

The most dismaying thing about my own little meltdown was how many people believe that the solution is just to ignore the truly vile. I mean, if this were a subway car with some mentally ill homeless person shouting obscenities, sure, you ignore that or move to another car. I don't think such a response is appropriate for a bar or clubhouse or whatever. You HAVE to get on the subway sometimes, and your options for dealing with the filth are limited. No one has to come to this site. If the homeless take over, some of us just won't show up any more. It's like what happened to Bryant Park in the '70s and '80s. The space was still there, but nobody with sense ever went in it.

May be every subforum needs to be turned into DT

Originally Posted by Prada_Ferragamo

Click to expand...

I ventured into MC last week and there were 3 threads started by noobs on Menswear house vs Jo.S Bank, completely pointless. If noobs actually used this site with all of its information, no one will get flamed.

Yet we have no 'sticky' that addresses the Menswearhouse vs. Jos A Bank question (maybe "Ask-a-question-get-an-answer'?).

I think it would be helpful to have a few more "Definitive Guide" sticky threads, and retire them at a certain age (because five years from now things are likely to be quite different).

Originally Posted by tj100

Click to expand...

Yet we have no 'sticky' that addresses the Menswearhouse vs. Jos A Bank question (maybe "Ask-a-question-get-an-answer'?).

I think it would be helpful to have a few more "Definitive Guide" sticky threads, and retire them at a certain age (because five years from now things are likely to be quite different).

You answered your own question there.

Nothing needs to be retired. The threads update themselves as time passes. If you look at things from a few years ago, they are definitely different from now.

Originally Posted by Prada_Ferragamo

Click to expand...

You answered your own question there.

Nothing needs to be retired. The threads update themselves as time passes. If you look at things from a few years ago, they are definitely different from now.

I'm not sure it's particularly clear to a noob that 'ask a question get an answer' is the right place for that. How many threads would we have if every question went into that one?

I disagree on the retirement issue. I think it's unreasonable to flame a noob for not reading all 115 pages (dating back three+ years) of 'the definitive slim fit shirt thread'. To me, the whole point of having a 'definitive' thread is to have an easy resource to go to when you're looking for a 'definitive' answer. Sifting through 115 pages for the right information doesn't pass the 'easy' test...

We would still have as many threads as we do now. Again simple search will turn up your answer. I use it, other people use it, why can't noobs use it.

There is advanced search function, otherwise you aren't trying hard enough.