Engagement ring advice

Originally Posted by Reevolving

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This is great advice, provided you're willing to pay twice as much for th same diamond.
Or get 1/2 the diamond for the same budget.

If there were any truth to your statement, I may agree with you. If you do as I suggest, and take your time in making this decision, you'll find that a lot of B&M places have better prices than BlueNile and other online vendors. Plus, you never know what you'll get from online vendors (see makewayhomer and zbromer for details). Its always better to see the diamond in person anyways, to know what truly is most important.

I never would have ranked the 4Cs the way I did if I made my purchase online. Plus, I never would have gotten the quality stone that I did at the same price (I actually checked BlueNile after the fact with the certification in my hand, and found out that I saved a few hundred dollars in the end)

But if you want the quick and (fairly) cheap way out, then go with the online stores. You can pick it out in 20 minutes and be done with it. But I'd imagine she deserves more effort than that.

Originally Posted by Reevolving

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Diamonds are a graded commodity.
You get exactly what the certificate says.
It has nothing to do with the seller.

The above story is called outright fraud, and I had not heard that about BN.
And that's quite different.

But, one vendor doesn't sell "bad" diamonds while another sells "good" ones
You can order whatever you like from BN or from the local jeweler.
**** to perfect. And everything in between

There are different systems to grade the quality. I'm too far out to remember the specifics, but there are two that are commonly used, and reliable. There's a third that is notoriously generous in its ratings, and most B&M places refuse diamonds with those certifications. BN and other online vendors won't hesitate to sell you those diamonds.

Originally Posted by Reevolving

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Diamonds are a graded commodity. You get exactly what the certificate says. It has nothing to do with the seller. The above story is called outright fraud, and I had not heard that about BN. And that's quite different.
it's not outright fraud, b/c the definitions on the certificate / in the industry are not nearly as cut and dry as you would think just take "clarity" for instance. call up 5 difference diamond vendors, and ask them what their definition of "eye clean" is. you are likely to get 5 different definitions. also, there are different types of inclusions, some of which may be more visible than others or prongable (hidable) than others. the grading on these things is pretty inconsistent, and in some cases a lower graded stone will be better than a higher graded one also, I have been told by jewelers that they will sometimes look at a stone different than what the cert says. they send it back, and voila it gets graded differently! the people grading stones are humans, they make mistakes, and ultimately need to make subjective calls on fairly arbitrary grading delineations. I learned to not take the GIA cert (which is better than almost any other) at face value. you absolutely need to see the stone. I outright refused to look at anything not graded GIA or AGS. it's possible you will get a nice stone, but you need to be careful

Originally Posted by Reevolving

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But, one vendor doesn't sell "bad" diamonds while another sells "good" ones
it is certainly true vendors have access to different stones - there is not 1 giant database that every person has access to. the best thing I can say about BN is that their customer service is easy to reach, they have fast shipping, and processed my return with no issues. but there is no way I would buy from them again.

I took the easy, albeit expensive, way out. Casually brought the girlfriend to Tiffanys, had her figure out the setting and style she liked. Then bought the ring at Tiffanys based on my budget a month later. It worked out smoothly for me.

regarding the inconsistency of grading:

go on BN right now, and search for

I color
SI1
Ideal Cut
1.34 - 1.49 carats

there is a 1.37 Carat stone that is $600 cheaper than a 1.35 carat stone. weird, right?

per carat, prices range from $4,600 to $5,800. again, how could this be if they are all graded similar?

the answer is that it could be for all kinds of reasons. each stone needs to be looked at and considered ,you can't just look at the 4 C's on the cert

Spend 2-3 months browsing through www.pricescope.com. Learn that there's more to a diamond than the 4Cs. Perhaps become so addicted that you go out and buy the special loupe so you can see the hearts and arrows in whatever diamond you're looking at (if it's a good round brilliant)--though you will be able to tell a lot just from the measurements of the diamond. Buy from www.whiteflash.com. If not, only buy diamonds with AGS or GIA certification.

Best bet is to get a referral from a friend/relative for a diamond dealer in NYC.

My jeweler was great, he actually brought a selection of diamonds to my office one day for me to peruse, had them rolled up in a cloth right in his pants pocket. Unfortunately for my wife, he moved to Florida last year.

pricescope (for research) and whiteflash (for buying online) are solid recs

the only thing I would caution about is analysis paralysis. it's very easy in this case, and there is always, always, going to be a slightly better or different or cheaper stone than the one you are thinking of buying. you ultimately just need to bite the bullet and make a call.

Originally Posted by thekunk07

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Also don't get too big or too small for the respective womans finger. My wifes ring size is 4.5 and anything over 1.5 carats would have been too big.
I don't live in the Kunk's world, but in my world, what you think your girl would want and what she would consider too big might surprise you. I have a very down-to-earth, practical, non-designer-whore, non-golddigging girl with a 4.5 finger, and in the end, she would have been content with 1.5 carats--but much bigger was definitely not too big. The difference the size made to her happiness and just as importantly how her family reacted was well worth the money to me, but YMMV. Yes diamonds have no instrinsic value other than as industrial cutting material. Yes the wedding industry and the diamond industry are all rip-off artists working emotional blackmail, guilt and ignorance. OTOH, quick perusal of the internet diamond sites indicate many, many women buy (or get their husbands to buy) the ring they really wanted later--as an anniversary present. With this economy and the odds on marriage, maybe that's a better bet. Just don't assume your girl wants or will be happy with what you do. Or that she doesn't know about diamonds or have a very highly developed idea of her dream ring. You might be in for a little surprise.

Originally Posted by makewayhomer

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regarding the inconsistency of grading:

go on BN right now, and search for

I color
SI1
Ideal Cut
1.34 - 1.49 carats

there is a 1.37 Carat stone that is $600 cheaper than a 1.35 carat stone. weird, right?

per carat, prices range from $4,600 to $5,800. again, how could this be if they are all graded similar?

the answer is that it could be for all kinds of reasons. each stone needs to be looked at and considered ,you can't just look at the 4 C's on the cert

Only a small percentage of BN stones are actually owned by them, and they are sold at a premium. The rest of what they do is charge a commission to other sellers who post their stones on BN's site. That's why some have only partial certificates, different kinds of certificates, poorly scanned certificates. And why the pricing is somewhat inconsistent--because it's set by each merchant.

Competition is your only aid to consistent pricing and most importantly, the 'make' of the stone, the ineluctable quality of cut that gives the stone life and fire, are poorly rated at best. Efforts to use cut analysis with percentages do help (see pricescope) but only somewhat. There's no substitute for seeing stones in person. Two stones might grade up very similarly, but one might be a dog and the other a beauty--which can account for a huge difference in price.

Originally Posted by jungshoe

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let her pick it. you'll thank yourself.

x2

Or at the very least, be prepared to offer to return it for one that more adequately fits her tastes. You don't have to take her to a store and say, "Surprise! Marry me! Now pick out a ring." But if the two of you are serious enough to be discussing marriage you should be able to discretely ask her what types/styles of ring she would like when that day arrives. After all, she is going to be the one with this on her finger for the rest of her life, you should want to make sure it's one that she is happy with.

Originally Posted by Michigan Planner

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if the two of you are serious enough to be discussing marriage you should be able to discretely ask her what types/styles of ring she would like when that day arrives. After all, she is going to be the one with this on her finger for the rest of her life, you should want to make sure it's one that she is happy with.

+1

At a bare minimum, you should have an idea of her favorite cut of diamond (round, princess, emerald, etc.)

Originally Posted by Michigan Planner

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After all, she is going to be the one with this on her finger for the rest of her life, you should want to make sure it's one that she is happy with.
It's also a gift. I'd be put off by a girl who is over-picky about her engagement ring. That is, of course, assuming you're not getting something in return and you're willing to do your best to do her right on your own. VVS1 and VVS2 are overkill, unless you care about the psychological effect. A VS2 stone will look identical, all else being equal--and cost a hell of a lot less. Color matters more. To most people, D is indistinguishable from F or G, but some are more sensitive than others and it's plausible that one could detect the difference. As zbromer points out: the quality of cut matters the most. It is most responsible for determining how much light is returned and how large the diamond appears face-up. That said, when I picked my wife's diamond, I went for D and VVS2. As they say on Pricescope: I paid a premium for the stone to be "mind clean." However, I probably would have gone down to F and VS1 if I could have found a diamond that was otherwise the right profile. In retrospect, I should have either paid less for a lower grade, or paid the same for a larger size. Oh well. Also, if apparent size is important to you, realize that different stone shapes have different face-up sizes given ideal cut. Round brilliants give you the most face-up size for the carat, but also cost the most. It tends to all balance out. I avoided Blue Nile because they charge more than what other places online ask for same-quality diamonds. Also, their best stones are all laser-engraved "Blue Nile." I found that pretty hard to stomach.

Originally Posted by HEPennypacker

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Spend 2-3 months browsing through www.pricescope.com. Learn that there's more to a diamond than the 4Cs. Perhaps become so addicted that you go out and buy the special loupe so you can see the hearts and arrows in whatever diamond you're looking at (if it's a good round brilliant)--though you will be able to tell a lot just from the measurements of the diamond. Buy from www.whiteflash.com. If not, only buy diamonds with AGS or GIA certification.
Came to basically post this. Pricescope has great information. I bought my wife's diamond from Whiteflash, got a great price on a great stone. They specialize in extremely high quality diamonds, with a lot of emphasis on cut. Color and clarity are really overemphasized in terms of visual appeal. People pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for things the human eye simply cannot see. If you like "white" diamonds, you can get an F color stone for a lot less than a D and no one will notice the difference unless you put them both face down on a piece of white paper, and once they're mounted, it's basically impossible to tell the difference. Anything over a good SI1 makes no visual difference, you can spend a huge premium to get the VVS grades and no one will ever notice. Just look at the stone under a loupe (the magnified images good online retailers provide is just fine too) and see if there are any obvious spots, if not, it's probably clear enough. I got an H color, SI1 clarity stone with an AGS0 grade cut (their highest grade), and it looks completely clear and fairly white, but also much more active than most stones and even looks larger due to the increased light return. Cut quality is where you should spend your money, but it's the hardest thing to grade. Need to do your research. I wouldn't even bother looking at anything that wasn't AGS or GIA graded. Ungraded stones are probably crap, and EGL is pretty generous in their grades (I don't believe that they have any cut standards either). AGL diamonds are usually more expensive too. I'm not a Blue Nile fan, at least for graded diamonds. Their cut grading system is not very good, a lot of the numbers don't make sense. Their prices aren't that great either. As for online vs brick and mortar, most of the good online retailers will let you examine the stones in person as long as you put down a deposit, or they'll have liberal return policies. Considering the price savings and increased selection over B&M, it's probably worth it unless you live near some of the few good B&M retailers around.

having recently been through all this...

Originally Posted by makewayhomer

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1. Blue Nile literally gets rejects from the stuff B&M guys don't want. I bought a stone from BN and ended up having to return it b/c it was very visibly flawed, which I was specifically told was not the case. I showed it to a jeweler before I returned it and he was like "yeah I saw this one, passed, and it ended up on BN"

2. the prices on BN also aren't nearly as good as you might think - they are basically in the same ballpark as other reputable online dealers and B&M guys.

bluenile doesn't hold inventory, so there's no such thing as getting rejects- the diamonds they have available are generally the same ones- and i mean the EXACT same ones- just about any other retailer (online or b&m) can order for you. the thing about b&m's is they obviously DO hold inventory that you can look at.

bluenile did seem a little cheaper than other online guys- they move a LOT of inventory - but not a whole lot. they're typically a lot cheaper than b&m.

3. under no circumstances should you buy from a mall jewelery store, that is expensive

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or any big chain store really.

5. I decided to emphasize the characteristics that were easily seen by the naked eye: Carats (size) and Cut (sparkle). these are the 2 things anybody will immediately notice. pay for the stuff you can see.

6. I de-emphasized things that were much harder to view with the naked eye: clarity and color.
- Re: color: When I looked at a D stone next to an I stone, I literally had no idea which was which. Forget the funnel test/measured against a white background - that really isn't a realistic real world scenario.

- Re: clarity: you really need to look at a stone for yourself and make sure it is "eye clean" - no visible flaws. I learned not to trust the certification grading for this. I saw visible flaws in stones that weren't supposed to be, and saw beautiful stones that were Si1.

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good advice. especially since color is definitely a preference thing- my wife preferred something in the g-h range- lower was too icy-blue, higher too yellow. more expensive isn't always better.

clarity is definitely where the values start to show up- VVSx are the way to go if you want to be "sure" that it's eye clean, but some good values in VS and SI- especially since some inclusions can be hidden by the setting.

Originally Posted by Reevolving

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Diamonds are a graded commodity.
You get exactly what the certificate says.
It has nothing to do with the seller.

except some sellers will sell the exact same diamond for a lot more money.

Originally Posted by scurvyfreedman

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The only advice I can give is the advice I received from my aunt who used to be a manager in the jewelry department of a NY store as well as what their diamond buyer advised when I bought my wife's diamond 10 years ago- buy for clarity and color. A beautiful stone will be obvious regardless of size, but a large poorly colored or unclear stone will just be a bigger eyesore.

i think that's exactly opposite. cut- is what makes it shiny. regardless of clarity and color. and size, well, size is size. and what woman do when they compare (and they all compare) is look at how big and shiny it is.

clarity isn't that big a deal in general- even something NOT eye clean is typically not eye clean from something like 10"-12" away. color is a preference- some prefer a 'warmer' stone.

i ended up getting a g/si1 - very much eye clean:
http://www.atwistedweb.com/images/wflash.jpg
stone magnified a whole lot:
http://www.atwistedweb.com/images/wflash_mag.jpg

also get familiar with aset and ideal scope-
http://www.atwistedweb.com/images/wflash_ideals.jpg
http://www.atwistedweb.com/images/wflash_aset.jpg

they give you a lot more insight into the cut of the diamond than a cert grading.
http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_r...chart_ASET.asp


i ended up buying from whiteflash.com.

I highly recommend them. they were also very responsive and put out a rush on the wedding band the week before my wedding when i forgot to order it ahead of time.

also check out the forums at diamondreview.com - a lot of pros that can provide you feedback on specific diamonds.