Toronto restaurant recommendation

Originally Posted by kwilkinson

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Can't we all agree that it's just Canada, and outside of one or two cities, nobody really gives a ****?

And I do also think he implied that Toronto is better than Chicago...

Originally Posted by SField

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And I do also think he implied that Toronto is better than Chicago...

Can't we all just agree that it's the Midwest, and outside of a city or two, nobody gives a ****?

Originally Posted by freshcutgrass

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Torontonians are not officially barred from playing the game, but as to not arouse suspicion from other players (like a black person pledging membership to the ***), you will generally need to fall into one or more of these categories....extremely self defacing...suffer from "grass-is-greener" syndrome...be an ex-pat (Mtl or Van is best)...or simply masquerade as a Torontonian (like being from Burlington for instance)...or simply be unaware that you are playing the game at all (by simply pointing out or agreeing with a specific realistic criticism).

I saw what you did there!

Yes, Toronto's relationship with the ROC ("rest of Canada" -- usually a term used to distinguish English speaking Canada from Quebec, but it fits here) is a fractured one. Your problem (well, one of them, at any rate), freshcut, is that you do not articulate very clearly how the various regions ("the hinterland" to Torontonians) despise Toronto for entirely different reasons. But like most Torontonians I know, you're likely tone-deaf to these variations because you will likely profess with pride your ignorance of rural Canada -- and that's a **** of a lot of Canada about which to remain ignorant.

Just to make my own biases clear, I misspent a good deal of my youth in Toronto and environs from the early '80s to the mid-90's. For a while there I kept moving closer and closer to the city (Oakville, Clarkson, Port Credit) but then changed course by settling permanently in Burlington. I think Toronto remains alluring to the young, but as a middle-aged father of two children under 7, I say you can keep it. I live on the GO line, if there is ever anything happening in Toronto that I just cannot miss -- such events grow fewer and fewer with each passing year. Many of my friends (and also my banker brother) have chosen to migrate to the city (Lawrence Park, primarily) and we carry on a playful dialogue along the lines of "Toronto is a Liberal haven of pinkos with gay pride parades every week/ the 905 is populated with mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging Conservative throwbacks". It's all in fun on the surface, but there are some value-driven choices being made and that's what ultimately fuels the "Toronto sucks/ Toronto is 'world class'" (a term never uttered, I suspect, in NYC, London, Paris, Tokyo etc.) divide.

So, have a happy New Year -- even if it must be spent in Toronto ...

I'm a little bored tonight, or, possibly the wine and port. That said, Burlington's even worse than TO. And where I live, worse than that. Back to Scaramouche and my ability to offer a valid assessment. I have been there three times, the first, as 30th anniversary dinner for my parents. A gelatinous amuse bouche, pretentious service, and main course worthy of Jack Astors (salmon and lamb). The 2nd and 3rd time there was as guest for business. Much of the same. I guess, about $1800 in all, which allows me an opinion. Canoe, North 44, Auberge du Pommier I have found to be superior in every way. Of course, none match Le Francais, La Grenouiile, Lutece, Daniel, Guy Savoy, Ducasse, etc. As for Toronto. I was just on Bloor St. today for the sales. For those not familiar with Hogtown, you could call it Madison very light. The service at Holt Renfrew (Canada's flagship upper echelon department store) was so dreadful, even my young son, just starting a high school job in sales commented on it without any initial comment from me (OT, had a sniff of several Creeds -- hmmm?). But Bloor has a parochial charm, if not the pavement, which was Detroit worthy in its shittiness -- glad I had 17s on. Oh, and don't forget the 7, yes 7 accidents on one side of the Gardiner/QEW (a five mile stretch). Cuz we're also home of the world's ******* worst drivers. Real marsupials. Happy to the keep the entertainment going. Anyway, back to the port.>>>

Originally Posted by audiophilia

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I'm a little bored tonight, or, possibly the wine and port.

That said, Burlington's even worse than TO.

And where I live, worse than that.

Back to Scaramouche and my ability to offer a valid assessment. I have been there three times, the first, as 30th anniversary dinner for my parents. A gelatinous amuse bouche, pretentious service, and main course worthy of Jack Astors (salmon and lamb). The 2nd and 3rd time there was as guest for business. Much of the same. I guess, about $1800 in all, which allows me an opinion. Canoe, North 44, Auberge du Pommier I have found to be superior in every way. Of course, none match Le Francais, La Grenouiile, Lutece, Daniel, Guy Savoy, Ducasse, etc.

As for Toronto. I was just on Bloor St. today for the sales. For those not familiar with Hogtown, you could call it Madison very light. The service at Holt Renfrew (Canada's flagship upper echelon department store) was so dreadful, even my young son, just starting a high school job in sales commented on it without any initial comment from me (OT, had a sniff of several Creeds -- hmmm?). But Bloor has a parochial charm, if not the pavement, which was Detroit worthy in its shittiness -- glad I had 17s on.

Oh, and don't forget the 7, yes 7 accidents on one side of the Gardiner/QEW (a five mile stretch). Cuz we're also home of the world's ******* worst drivers. Real marsupials.

Happy to the keep the entertainment going.

Anyway, back to the port.>>>

Don't expect a reasonable or logical reply to any of those statements.

Originally Posted by SField

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Don't expect a reasonable or logical reply to any of those statements.

That's what I and, by all accounts, the rest of the thread viewers want. He won't let us down. That boy loves the GTA.

Here's something to be going on with:

Orchestra - Mtl
Hockey - C'mon
Baseball -
Basketball - crap sport
Opera - TO
Ballet - TO
Art Gallery -- both suck
Museum - TO (the only one and it sucks)
Weather - Toronto (just)
Skiing - Mtl
Jazz -- tie
Rock - dunno
Cuisine - Mtl
Fine shopping - TO
Transit - Mtl
Drivers - C'mon!
Road system - Mtl, by far.
Road quality - TO
University - Mtl
High School TO/CEGEP Mtl - CEGEP is far superior
Airport - TO
Housing - Mtl
Taxes - TO
Wages - TO

Originally Posted by audiophilia

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That's what I and, by all accounts, the rest of the thread viewers want. He won't let us down. That boy loves the GTA.

Here's something to be going on with:

Orchestra - Mtl
Hockey - C'mon

Baseball -

Basketball - crap sport
Opera - TO
Ballet - TO
Art Gallery -- both suck
Museum - TO (the only one and it sucks)
Weather - Toronto (just)
Skiing - Mtl
Jazz -- tie
Rock - dunno
Cuisine - Mtl
Fine shopping - TO
Transit - Mtl
Drivers - C'mon!
Road system - Mtl, by far.
Road quality - TO
University - Mtl

High School TO/CEGEP Mtl - CEGEP is far superior
Airport - TO
Housing - Mtl
Taxes - TO
Wages - TO

Really don't agree on the Opera. I've heard much better performances in Montreal, and considering that a great deal of the best Opera singers in canada are french and all the talent is in Montreal (ensemble players for ntl. ballet and opera are all just rank and file TSOers - mediocre regional orchestra quality), just having an ugly Ikea-like opera center with a pitiful side entrance with all the charm of a Bay st. law firm doesn't mean your city has good Opera. Never heard any performance in TO that was on par with Chicago Lyric or The Met, but in Montreal, I certainly did. You could never have tens of thousands show up for a performance of Carmen in Toronto. Montreal does that every year in the square outside of Place des Arts.

Also jazz, come on? World's biggest Jazz fest in Montreal.... how does Toronto even close, when in Montreal there's a channel on TV that you can watch the entire festival, around the clock for the entire year until the new festival? Every big jazz head I know, including the European ones, all rave about Montreal. Montreal jazz clubs are better too. I'll give the new terminal to Pearson, but that's about it with that airport. Still prefer arrivals/departures at Trudeau. Neither are good airports though.

I saw what you did there!

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Whooooa....you're just getting too clever for me.

Your problem (well, one of them, at any rate), freshcut, is that you do not articulate very clearly how the various regions ("the hinterland" to Torontonians) despise Toronto for entirely different reasons.

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I notice quite a few of you self-proclaimed therapists like to use the term..."the problem with..." & "your problem is..." a lot. Can I send you my address so you can bill me? I feel guilty.

Oh...but I am well versed in the many varied versions of Toronto hating (most of my childhood was not spent in Toronto, and I've traveled extensively). 905 hate is different from northern Ontario hate, which is different from rural Ontario hate (Prince Edward County doesn't officially hate Toronto...they just hate anybody in their county who isn't "county" ). Then there's First Nations hate. And that only takes care of a very generalized sweep Ontario.

Peggers aren't too infected, and I've never really detected anything particular about Prairie hate.

Alberta hate (the Bible Belt of Canada for those not in the know) is a mixture of just compulsory generalized "Canadian" Toronto hate (I believe this is subliminally taught in kindergarten in all non-Toronto schools), mixed with self-righteous born-again moral hate, separation anxiety hate (they think we are just too far away), and a healthy dose of selfish hate..."now that we are a "have" province, we don't want to give a penny to anyone else", including Albertans not worthy...hence the one-way bus tickets to Vancouver hilarity (this is not specialized Toronto hate really...more just non-Alberta hate). Edmonton is noticeably more easy going about this than Calgary (who thinks a rodeo is the cultural highlight of Canada).

B.C. hate is again some separation anxiety hate, plus they assume we are just all tight-assed Bay Street Bankers. Vancouverites tend to get really pissed off if they actually make it to Toronto to find this stereotype a myth, and there are actually way more bohemian, arty types here than BC, although reprogramming seems to be very easy once they return to Vancouver.

Maritimers don't tend to hate anybody. They may be a bit "wary" of Toronto, but would much rather just make fun of you. I find Maritimers expect to be a fish out of water when they hit the "Big Smoke" ahead of time, but also expect to get a job. (A big Canadian FAIL to you, if you haven't seen Goin' Down the Road).

There's a big difference between Quebec hate and Montreal hate. Quebec (sans Mtl) hates Toronto by default, as it's the alpha city of english Canada, in Ontario, which also contains the federal govt. This isn't silly hate like the rest of the country...it's some serious, emotional hate.

Montreal is not dominated by english hate (in fact, they have just as much of an issue with the rest of Que). Their superior attitude actually had some basis back a million years ago when the two cities actually had something resembling a rivalry going on. But Toronto has left them so far in the dust, that we just couldn't be bothered anymore. They still think this is going on of course, and realizing we just don't see them as any serious competition really gets them mad. To add insult to injury, we don't even make an effort to return the hate...we actually like Montreal and say so. The ones that see this as a condescending pat on the head get extra special crispy pissed. he he

I think Toronto remains alluring to the young, but as a middle-aged father of two children under 7, I say you can keep it.

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I think you make for a fabulous suburbanite, but from where I'm standing...you can keep it too (and at least it isn't Milton or Brampton).

SField:

Of course, the Jazz Festival. Duh! My father played enough gigs in it. Like I said, the port!!

The Opera in Mtl is accompanied by the Metropolitain, which is not a patch on the excellent COC orchestra (built over the past twenty odd years by the late, great Richard Bradshaw). And the singers, from what my ex-students say, are generally good. Toronto can draw some good singers. But, I have seen 4 fabulous, world-class productions at the COC over the last couple of years. One was even accepted at the Edinburgh Festival, Robert Lepage's stunning verson of Bartok's Blackbeard's Castle (although directed by a Quebecer!). A singular event for a Canadian artistic outfit (other than the odd Euro ballet trip). Dutchman, Pelleas, and Erwartung were superb, too. But Blackbeard is still one of the greatest things I've experienced.

The above matched the best of the Lyric. The COC is not consistently on par with the two you cite, though. Love the Met.

As for Toronto

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Don't you get tired? Ever?

The service at Holt Renfrew was so dreadful,

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Yea...cause they're just so well known for dreadful service there. ha ha ha

You should have phoned ahead and told them who you are...I'm sure they would have the closed the store down (on Boxing Day), so you could do some private shopping...I'm sure the staff would prefer it to the Boxing Day crowds. And I'm sure they would have plenty of complimentary "Wine & Port" on hand so you could feel right at home.

even my young son, just starting a high school job in sales commented on it without any initial comment from me

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A chip off the 'ole block eh? How wonderful

Let me tell you something...if you don't think any sales staff couldn't smell a ****** attitude like yours from a mile away, then you are as delusional as you seem. Would also explain your perception of bad service at restaurants normally known for good service.

But Bloor has a parochial charm, if not the pavement, which was Detroit worthy in its shittiness

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Oh right...the sidewalk. Cause I noticed the sidewalks on Madison the last time I was there were just "world class". ha ha ha

They are actually prepping that street for the $20 million sidewalk improvement project...already u/c at Yonge. Be sure to drop by next Boxing Day to give us your opinion (or you can just give it now, as I think we know it's a forgone conclusion).

Seriously though, I find the shopping environment of Yorkville village considerably more charming than most north american "upscale" districts.

Also jazz, come on? World's biggest Jazz fest in Montreal.... how does Toronto even close, when in Montreal there's a channel on TV that you can watch the entire festival, around the clock for the entire year until the new festival?

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Yea...Montreal is a nice jazz town for 10 days out of the year...Toronto is a great jazz town 365 days of the year (without even counting its multiple jazz festivals). The fact that you need to watch reruns of the festival until the next one comes around is funny (and sad at the same time).

Originally Posted by freshcutgrass

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Don't you get tired? Ever?

Are you Diefenbaker's love child? Just wondering?

Are you Diefenbaker's love child?

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No...but you're warm.

I'm Maggie & Castro's secret bastard.

Here's my mommy being a good Canadian, and shown' her beaver....

Originally Posted by freshcutgrass

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Yea...Montreal is a nice jazz town for 10 days out of the year...Toronto is a great jazz town 365 days of the year (without even counting its multiple jazz festivals). The fact that you need to watch reruns of the festival until the next one comes around is funny (and sad at the same time).

I did apologize to you earlier but you are just looking like a raving lunatic of late. You've made these two lengthy, pretty weird posts about some "game", enumerating all the different kinds of 'hate' in Canada and all the typical arguments against toronto. Clearly, you've thought a great deal about this, and quite obviously, you've had this argument a few hundred times.

As Kwilk says, no one really cares, and you're trying to make this a global issue while it really isn't. Also, Yorkville's little shopping district is about a quarter of a kilometer long. I don't exactly see how that compares to any other major city in the world. Soho alone vastly outstrips Toronto's understocked, limited, overpriced inventories. In fact, there are malls in the united states where you could get more than you can get in that little area.

Again, I don't exactly care either way. I don't live in either city and never will. My personal ego is not inextricably linked with the quality of my city, and frankly if it was, anywhere I've lived for a long period of time would easily smash the living **** out of Toronto (or Montreal for that matter) so I suppose that isn't a worry either. A number of people have talked about your defence of Toronto as being a little manic, bordering on psychotic. Just take it easy and be happy about where you live. Clearly you think it's incredible so there's no need to keep this discussion going. If people keep needling you in a way that you think lacks factual veracity, it's because they think you're acting kind of nuts and they find your extensive rants entertaining.

Originally Posted by audiophilia

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Are you Diefenbaker's love child? Just wondering?

Oh, I think "love" has never had anything to do with his life, nor ever been part of it. It would explain much of what we read, wouldn't it?

It was mentioned that Toronto has a better ballet company. Perhaps that's true for classical stuff (though NBoC has had its share of trouble), but Montreal has more interesting and equally accomplished dance companies: Les Grands Ballets Canadiens and La La La Human Steps, to name two.

--Andre