Can we agree on this as terms???

Zegnamtl · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by iammatt

no, Oxxford would qualify and certainly deserves to be called something different than does Kiton. They would seem to be the Chateau d'Yquem of the RTW world at very least. Also, some bespoke makers do much less than Oxxford or possibly even Kiton.

I personally fell like a total idiot after seeing these threads as I fully bought into the Kiton mystique for years and completely denied the better information available from some of the posters on this board re Oxxford and the difference.

I would not feel like an idiot, they still felt great on your back and looked good,
how about consoling yourself by playing the old high school chick rating game,
They were 7s dressed up as 9s, thats not sooooo bad.....

Can you propose something that reflects the state of the industry but allows distinction between the house and keeps us on the same field?

or, we could just keep pissing in the wind which would give us lots to post about for the next few years

itsstillmatt · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

I would not feel like an idiot, they still felt great on your back and looked good,
how about consoling yourself by playing the old high school chick rating game,
They were 7s dressed up as 9s, thats not sooooo bad.....

Can you propose something that reflects the state of the industry but allows distinction between the house and keeps us on the same field?

or, we could just keep pissing in the wind which would give us lots to post about for the next few years
I don't feel like an idiot for wearing them, I feel like an idiot for not listening to people who know what they were talking about. I think the suits look nice.. As far as something that reflects the reality of the RTW world, why not just say that Oxxford offers handmade suits while a whole host of others offer really nice machine made suits with beautiful hand finishing in nice fabrics. It is honest, at least. Even better, say buy what you like.

Huntsman · Jul 5, 2007

I vote #3 as well. If for no other reason than the proposed terminology is offensive to my profession.

whnay. · Jul 5, 2007

Summer doldrums here at SF.

Zegnamtl · Jul 5, 2007

Manton wrote:

3) The canvas assembly itself. Machine stitched canvasses are not so bad, really -- a bit stiff, maybe, and they don't move as fluidly. The real strenth of hand v. machine sewing here is a looser stitch that allows the various piece to retain more of their independent qualities while still operating together as one unit. What really sucks about the machine-sewn canvasses is that they are typically not individually cut and sized. This is obviously a bigger deal with bespoke than RTW. Who cares if you use a pre-sized canvas on a block pattern suit? BTW, even the most handmade canvass in the world has some machine work. I've never seen anyone do the darts by hand, for instance, and I doubt there would be a point.

~~~~~~~~~

Manton,

I have never sat in a bespoke tailors shop and watched the canvass stages.
Does your tailor sew his own from scratch or start with a based and go from there?

Manton · Jul 5, 2007

Apart from some older Flusser garments, everything I have gotten in NY and London has a canvas cut and handsewn from scratch. One tailor (at least, one that I know of) uses a pre-made, machine-basted intercollar.

T4phage · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by iammatt

How about this:

Handmade: All of the working parts or guts done by hand including the lapel and most likely the collar padding. No machines used to "fake" a handmade look. Any of the non working parts like pockets, long seams etc can be done by machine.

Machine made: Not hand made. Can be fused, hand finished, deconstructed, anything...

This seems more simple and more realistic.
Agreed. Although you can maybe split the bottom definiton: Fused and Non Fused.

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

.........
Hand Made Garment:

A suit or jacket made with 75 percent or more by hand, and the balance being made by tailors with conventional style sewing machines.

Hand Sewn Garment:

A suit or jacket made exclusively by a tailor using a needle and thread, possibly with an exception for the long seam in the jacket and pant legs, but no where else.
I find your definitions too vague, and the borders between most are fuzzy at best. For example, look at the highlighted part.. this is the only time you used the term "by hand". What does that mean? Hand sewing with needle and thread? Or handguiding a piece of fabric thru a machine? Or manually operating machinery? Too vague. Iammatt's definition is neat and concise.
btw, why is your photo of the exposed Kiton canvas in your article on AAAC missing?

Artisan Fan · Jul 5, 2007

Some members have emailed suggesting that the quality of the parts is as important as the construction. Think softer canvas parts, fabrics, quality of lining, etc. This seems reasonable to me. If we go solely by construction process, Brioni and Kiton both may be unfairly lumped into a category more typical of Mani or some other low grade brand.

Artisan Fan · Jul 5, 2007

Anyone else note the ironic consensus here is that Oxxford makes a better garment but not many would want to wear it if a Kiton is in the closet?

Manton · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Anyone else note the ironic consensus here is that Oxxford makes a better garment but not many would want to wear it if a Kiton is in the closet?

Yes -- I started a whole thread dedicated to that very topic!

Zegnamtl · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by T4phage

Agreed. Although you can maybe split the bottom definiton: Fused and Non Fused.

I find your definitions too vague, and the borders between most are fuzzy at best. For example, look at the highlighted part.. this is the only time you used the term "by hand". What does that mean? Hand sewing with needle and thread? Or handguiding a piece of fabric thru a machine? Or manually operating machinery? Too vague. Iammatt's definition is neat and concise.
btw, why is your photo of the exposed Kiton canvas in your article on AAAC missing?

I sure am open to other suggestions, but we need to reflect the industry, not our desires for the industry. Any suggestions?

The pictures on AAAC are not loading as i posted, and it will not allow me to edit, I will write to medwards and ask for help.

There was a picture of a machine padded collar being cut and trimmed,
a machine padded collar being attached to the jacket.

I checked the Kiton web site today on my daughters IBM laptop, my mac won't play their videos, the Kiton videos clearly show machine padded lapels and collars.

Zegnamtl · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Anyone else note the ironic consensus here is that Oxxford makes a better garment but not many would want to wear it if a Kiton is in the closet?

The ironic part of it is, Oxxford owns more sewing machines than Kiton,
but Kiton's seem to be nastier machines as Oxxford are just a bunch of old Singers.

Cantabrigian · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Anyone else note the ironic consensus here is that Oxxford makes a better garment but not many would want to wear it if a Kiton is in the closet?

That would only be ironic if people considered quality of construction the most important criterion in what to wear.

I would suspect that so long as a suit is fully canvassed and decently well made, most people will opt for the style they find most appealing.

That's definitely how I voted - preferring style over a noticeable improvement in quality of construction.

T4phage · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

I sure am open to other suggestions, but we need to reflect the industry, not our desires for the industry. Any suggestions?.....

The one made by Iammatt seems like a nice clean demarcation of what most tailors would agree as the base minimum to qualify as a 'handmade' suit. The next level down, what Iammatt defines as "Machine made" could maybe better be divided between "fused" and "unfused". Most of what you have suggested as "engineered garments" will fall into the 'fused' groupings, along as most other low to mid level brands. The bean counting is in the "unfused" section. How to define which is which? Is Kiton better than La Vera is better than Brioni is better than Belvest is better than etc. At that level they are all about equal in the amount of handwork (as defined by hand holding needle and thread, or hand holding pressing iron to shape, etc..).. how to grade and pidgeonhole them? I do not think it is really worth doing. Since in my eyes, they are all about the same. You choose which one fits better, looks better, and feels better.

SGladwell · Jul 5, 2007

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Anyone else note the ironic consensus here is that Oxxford makes a better garment but not many would want to wear it if a Kiton is in the closet?
The only thing I find odd, not ironic perhaps, but odd, is that both the Kiton and Oxxford partisans seem to be locked in this pathetic little Crusade against the other, maybe with Brioni thrown in every once in a while as collateral damage. The Oxxfordites yell "more handwork!" The Kitonites, while at first denying what the Oxxfordites say before overwhelming evidence finally compels even the least mentally able among them to see reality, bray "but people like us better anyway!" Oxxford, Kiton, and Brioni are hardly the only decent RTW suits out there. Maybe it's just that people who have a general preference for Isaia or Barbera or RLPL or Belvest or T&A or Zegna or Castangia or whatever don't treat the brand of suit they wear as a religion.

Can we agree on this as terms???

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