Can we agree on this as terms???

[Zegnamtl]

Clearly a large source of division between forum members and the industry is the wide variation in terminology.

Can we agree on the suggested below or can some one post a realistic and usable set of terms that put us all on the same page!


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Engineered Garment :

A suit or jacket made with automated machines doing the bulk of the work. Shop uses few tailors, relies mostly on machinery operators.

Machine Made Garment:

A suit or jacket made with 50 percent or more of the work done by tailors using conventional style sewing machines, jump baster, button machines etc.


Machine Made, Hand finished:

A suit or jacket made with about 50 percent or more of the work done by tailors on conventional sewing machines and finishing details by hand.


Hand Made Garment:

A suit or jacket made with 75 percent or more by hand, and the balance being made by tailors with conventional style sewing machines.



Hand Sewn Garment:

A suit or jacket made exclusively by a tailor using a needle and thread, possibly with an exception for the long seam in the jacket and pant legs, but no where else.

 

[zjpj83]

I choose option 3: who cares - it doesn't matter.

 

[itsstillmatt]

How about this:

Handmade: All of the working parts or guts done by hand including the lapel and most likely the collar padding. No machines used to "fake" a handmade look. Any of the non working parts like pockets, long seams etc can be done by machine.

Machine made: Not hand made. Can be fused, hand finished, deconstructed, anything...

This seems more simple and more realistic.

 

[JBZ]

Originally Posted by zjpj83

I choose option 3: who cares - it doesn't matter.

Agreed. I'm seriously amazed at how many people have gotten their panties in a twist over this issue.

 

[aportnoy]

Originally Posted by iammatt

How about this:

Handmade: All of the working parts or guts done by hand including the lapel and most likely the collar padding. No machines used to "fake" a handmade look.

Machine made: Not hand made. Can be fused, hand finished, deconstructed, anything...

This seems more simple and more realistic.

Yes, this works for me.

 

[gdl203]

iammatt would rather define the world as 0.01% versus 99.99%... Of course while being in the 0.01%

I voted both on your poll - just because I could

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by gdl203

iammatt would rather define the world as 0.01% versus 99.99%... Of course while being in the 0.01%

I voted both on your poll - just because I could
edited to be more descriptive

. in other words: Oxxford yes, Kiton no.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by iammatt

How about this:

Handmade: All of the working parts or guts done by hand including the lapel and most likely the collar padding. No machines used to "fake" a handmade look. Any of the non working parts like pockets, long seams etc can be done by machine.

Machine made: Not hand made. Can be fused, hand finished, deconstructed, anything...

This seems more simple and more realistic.

Why are you trying to slant the rules in Oxxford's favor?

 

[itsstillmatt]

<-- newest member of the left-wing conspiracy.

 

[Tarmac]

I have to agree with the OP when he says that Oxxford is definitely better

 

[Zegnamtl]

The problem below is it does not relfect the state of the RTW industry.
That would sum up the state of Bespoke vs RTW.

Originally Posted by iammatt

How about this:

Handmade: All of the working parts or guts done by hand including the lapel and most likely the collar padding. No machines used to "fake" a handmade look. Any of the non working parts like pockets, long seams etc can be done by machine.

Machine made: Not hand made. Can be fused, hand finished, deconstructed, anything...

This seems more simple and more realistic.

 

[Cantabrigian]

Maybe it doesn't matter in terms of this particular discussion but in a practical sense, I'd definitely want to seperate fused suits from totally machine-done canvassed suits.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by Cantabrigian

Maybe it doesn't matter in terms of this particular discussion but in a practical sense, I'd definitely want to seperate fused suits from totally machine-done canvassed suits.
I completely agree with that

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

The problem below is it does not relfect the state of the RTW industry. That would sum up the state of Bespoke vs RTW.
no, Oxxford would qualify and certainly deserves to be called something different than does Kiton. They would seem to be the Chateau d'Yquem of the RTW world at very least. Also, some bespoke makers do much less than Oxxford or possibly even Kiton. I personally fell like a total idiot after seeing these threads as I fully bought into the Kiton mystique for years and completely denied the better information available from some of the posters on this board re Oxxford and the difference.

 

[Manton]

I would rank the importance of hand stitching as follows:

1) Attaching the canvas to the lapel. This is key. Hand padding creates a better roll, and the perfect combination of softness and structure.

2) The shoulder seam. Excess fullness needs to be fed into the back of a coat for movement. This is regardless of whether you like drape in the front or not. A coat without fullness in the back will wear tight, unless you get it a little big in the shoulders. Hand sewing allows the tailor to feed that fullness in evenly. Plus, a hand sewn shoulder seam has more "give" and "spring."

3) The canvas assembly itself. Machine stitched canvasses are not so bad, really -- a bit stiff, maybe, and they don't move as fluidly. The real strenth of hand v. machine sewing here is a looser stitch that allows the various piece to retain more of their independent qualities while still operating together as one unit. What really sucks about the machine-sewn canvasses is that they are typically not individually cut and sized. This is obviously a bigger deal with bespoke than RTW. Who cares if you use a pre-sized canvas on a block pattern suit? BTW, even the most handmade canvass in the world has some machine work. I've never seen anyone do the darts by hand, for instance, and I doubt there would be a point.

4) The sleeves. This can be and is done both ways by the best tailors. I doubt most of us could tell when wearing a coat whether the sleeve was set by machine or by hand. The most sensetive among us may notice a bit more give from a hand-set sleeve.

5) The intercollar. The least important. Possibly handsewing results in superior shape, but when the thing is being pulled around your neck by the balance of the coat, it has plenty of help in keeping its shape.

None of this is my personal opinion; it is all fact -- let us say, "rules" even. I will accept only toadying responses to this post, and if anyone attempts to challenge me, I will use my mind control. After all, I have to protect my commercial interests.