Should I still tip 15%?

Thankfully I am leaving for the Orient this week for two months.

None of this nonsense to contend with.

This thread makes me cry. Good service is first and foremost sincere, friendly service. If the wait staff is a douche but can speak to me of a rose being made saignà e vs. skin contact he/she still isn't getting a good tip. Sincere, friendly service is the #1 best predictor of my tip.

As far as what I'm reading here, some of you folks that think you have high standards actually need to get out more and also expand your palate. Mineral water is gross? And water pitchers on the table? Yeah, that looks great at the indoor picnic table.

Originally Posted by Piobaire

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This thread makes me cry. Good service is first and foremost sincere, friendly service. If the wait staff is a douche but can speak to me of a rose being made saignÃ

e vs. skin contact he/she still isn't getting a good tip. Sincere, friendly service is the #1 best predictor of my tip.

As far as what I'm reading here, some of you folks that think you have high standards actually need to get out more and also expand your palate. Mineral water is gross?

And water pitchers on the table? Yeah, that looks great at the indoor picnic table.

This is exactly what I thought. I don't know about you guys, but when I go out for dinner I do so to have a good time, enjoy drinks and good and food while sharing the experience with friends. If the waiter contributes to the atmosphere by being friendly and personable I barely notice waits between drink refills and courses as I'm too busy enjoying myself.

I virtually always tip over 20%. My Dad always said that the difference (in $$) between a mediocre tip and a good tip is pretty negligible, but it can make a servers night. If the server made my night better, than ****, why can't I do the same??

Originally Posted by odoreater

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So I'll ask again, if I don't partake in the waiter's knowledge of food and wine, should I just tip him less?


So, if the janitor cleans your office thoroughly without you needing to ask his opinions on various cleaning chemicals, should his hourly wage be lowered?

There is a way to dine without having to tip or deal with a waiter...it involves either eating at home, or ordering into a clown's head.

Originally Posted by RedScarf7

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This is exactly what I thought. I don't know about you guys, but when I go out for dinner I do so to have a good time, enjoy drinks and good and food while sharing the experience with friends. If the waiter contributes to the atmosphere by being friendly and personable I barely notice waits between drink refills and courses as I'm too busy enjoying myself.

I virtually always tip over 20%. My Dad always said that the difference (in $$) between a mediocre tip and a good tip is pretty negligible, but it can make a servers night. If the server made my night better, than ****, why can't I do the same??


Sounds like your dad had class and style, and the apple did not fall far from the tree.

Originally Posted by MrDaniels

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So, if the janitor cleans your office thoroughly without you needing to ask his opinions on various cleaning chemicals, should his hourly wage be lowered?

There is a way to dine without having to tip or deal with a waiter...it involves either eating at home, or ordering into a clown's head.

I'm not sure what your point is. If anything, your first statement proves my point. All I need the waiter to do is to take my order and bring me my food. I don't need his opinions on anything. Therefore, what difference does it make to me whether he knows about wine pairings or not? Why should I pay for that knowledge when I don't need it? Just like I pay the janitor to clean the floor. As long as the floor is clean, I don't really care how much he knows about various cleaning chemicals. I wouldn't pay a janitor more just because he knows about various cleaning chemicals if he doesn't get the floor any cleaner than the other guy.

And like I said, I tip pretty much everyone 20% out of custom, but I don't kid myself into thinking that the waiter at a restaurant that charges more money some how deserves a higher tip because he's better trained or more qualified. That whole line of argument is just bullshit. You can go to a diner and have a full meal for 20 dollars where the waitress doesn't do anything special and have any special knowledge, and you can go to a restaurant where the check comes out to $100 where the waiter also doesn't have any particular knowledge about anything. Should you tip the guy at the $100 restaurant $4, even though the check is $100 because he knows the same stuff as the waitress at the diner? No. You tip him $20 because that's just 20% of the bill, not because he knows more than waitresses at a diner.

Originally Posted by odoreater

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I'm not sure what your point is. If anything, your first statement proves my point. All I need the waiter to do is to take my order and bring me my food. I don't need his opinions on anything. Therefore, what difference does it make to me whether he knows about wine pairings or not? Why should I pay for that knowledge when I don't need it? Just like I pay the janitor to clean the floor. As long as the floor is clean, I don't really care how much he knows about various cleaning chemicals. I wouldn't pay a janitor more just because he knows about various cleaning chemicals if he doesn't get the floor any cleaner than the other guy.

And like I said, I tip pretty much everyone 20% out of custom, but I don't kid myself into thinking that the waiter at a restaurant that charges more money some how deserves a higher tip because he's better trained or more qualified. That whole line of argument is just bullshit. You can go to a diner and have a full meal for 20 dollars where the waitress doesn't do anything special and have any special knowledge, and you can go to a restaurant where the check comes out to $100 where the waiter also doesn't have any particular knowledge about anything. Should you tip the guy at the $100 restaurant $4, even though the check is $100 because he knows the same stuff as the waitress at the diner? No. You tip him $20 because that's just 20% of the bill, not because he knows more than waitresses at a diner.
Well, I guess not everyone is as cultivated and knowledgeable as you are! Maybe you should try being a waiter and see how good you are at it.

Originally Posted by MrDaniels

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Well, I guess not everyone is as cultivated and knowledgeable as you are! Maybe you should try being a waiter and see how good you are at it.

Odoreater's question/stance is as usual a pretty reasonable one, so throwing up a bullshit line like this is basically meaningless.

Originally Posted by odoreater

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And like I said, I tip pretty much everyone 20% out of custom, but I don't kid myself into thinking that the waiter at a restaurant that charges more money some how deserves a higher tip because he's better trained or more qualified.

That you don't require his services doesn't mean he isn't "better trained or more qualified."

You simply aren't making use of his training or qualifications - to be a waiter in a fine dining atmosphere, he does have certain abilities not found in (the ability to serve unobtrusively, answer any and all questions asked, etc.) your average TGI McFunster's waiter.

Originally Posted by milosz

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That you don't require his services doesn't mean he isn't "better trained or more qualified." You simply aren't making use of his training or qualifications - to be a waiter in a fine dining atmosphere, he does have certain abilities not found in (the ability to serve unobtrusively, answer any and all questions asked, etc.) your average TGI McFunster's waiter.
Ok, fine, but explain this to me: the waitress at the diner and the waiter at Red Lobster both have about the same level of knowledge, training, qualification, etc. A meal at the diner for two people costs $30 so if you're leaving a 20% tip you would leave $6. A meal at Red Lobster for two people costs $100, so if you're leaving 20% tip you would leave $20. Is there any reason based in logic why the waitress at the diner is getting $6 and the guy at Red Lobster is getting $20? I say no - it's just custom. Are there exceptional waiters at exceptional restaurants that deserve an exceptional tip? I suppose so. But most of the time, we tip waiters more because it's custom to tip 20%, not because they know more, or do more, or provide more of a service than the waitress at the diner.

Originally Posted by MrDaniels

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Well, I guess not everyone is as cultivated and knowledgeable as you are! Maybe you should try being a waiter and see how good you are at it.
I've done it all guy.

Originally Posted by odoreater

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Ok, fine, but explain this to me: the waitress at the diner and the waiter at Red Lobster both have about the same level of knowledge, training, qualification, etc. A meal at the diner for two people costs $30 so if you're leaving a 20% tip you would leave $6. A meal at Red Lobster for two people costs $100, so if you're leaving 20% tip you would leave $20. Is there any reason based in logic why the waitress at the diner is getting $6 and the guy at Red Lobster is getting $20? I say no - it's just custom.

The Red Lobster waitress is managing 8-14 guests (or less) at any given time. The diner waitress is managing two or three times as many.

The Red Lobster waitress does have to know the menu and the house drinks, to time apps, salads and entrees and to make your experience pretty good - Red Lobster is, after all, fancy eatin' for a lot of working/middle class Americans.

The diner waitress's skill set is different (and probably harder) - more people, more refills, but only delivering one course and not necessarily needing to have any knowledge of the menu.

To put it one way, each quality level of restaurant requires a greater degree of 'white collar' ability and knowledge on the part of waiters - including appearance.

I agree with odoreater --- we're tipping 20% regardless. Any less and people will look at you like you're a cheap alien. There's no need to justify it by saying the service was any better from one restaurant to the next. Hell, tipping's gotten so prevalent that I even see a line for tip at the barbershop, the mechanic, and take-out places.

Originally Posted by odoreater

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So, since I don't partake in this supposed special knowledge that the waiter has, should I be tipping him less? And this whole business about there being more wait staff at an expensive restaurant so they have to split the tip among more people - even if that's true, that means each individual person is doing less work and therefore deserves less money per table.

Does a law firm partner deserve less money than an associate because he's doing less work? Should you get a discount on a partner's hourly rate because you did not use the entirety of his knowledge on precedents and cases that are not applicable to yours?

More experienced, knowledgeable and customer-oriented waiters get paid more money because the restaurant wants this type of waiters interfacing with the customers. They will not take the risk of hiring less skilled or experienced waiters and have them ruin the experience for the patrons, thereby foregoing future business. You, as a patron, do not make these decisions for the restaurant manager or owner, you just accept the tacit contract that comes with better / higher priced restaurants, which is that service will be more expensive in absolute dollars. If you're going to refuste to pay customary rate for the service, then you should probably not eat at more expensive restaurants, because you're essentially breaching a tacit agreement you made when you booked that table or walked into the restaurant.

I tip 20% so I don't feel cheap, not because I really give two ***** about service unless it is great or terrible. Let's not kid ourselves here.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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Does a law firm partner deserve less money than an associate because he's doing less work? Should you get a discount on a partner's hourly rate because you did not use the entirety of his knowledge on precedents and cases that are not applicable to yours?

More experienced, knowledgeable and customer-oriented waiters get paid more money because the restaurant wants this type of waiters interfacing with the customers. They will not take the risk of hiring less skilled or experienced waiters and have them ruin the experience for the patrons, thereby foregoing future business. You, as a patron, do not make these decisions for the restaurant manager or owner, you just accept the tacit contract that comes with better / higher priced restaurants, which is that service will be more expensive in absolute dollars. If you're going to refuste to pay customary rate for the service, then you should probably not eat at more expensive restaurants, because you're essentially breaching a tacit agreement you made when you booked that table or walked into the restaurant.




Beautifully put. I was also going to add that the manager of a Red Lobster and the manager of The Four Seasons do essentially the exact same job, yet the salary for managing the Four Seasons will be much higher due to the fact that one needs more polish, knowledge and experience to pull it off. Why not question that disparity? It's so easy to pick on waiters when one feels they can be on a power trip by getting to decide how much they get paid for serving you; but perhaps we should look at what executives make if there is to be an honest discussion about persons getting paid appropriately for the amount of work performed.