Lawyer, Law School, BigLaw FAQ

Originally Posted by theincumbent

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So you are going to spend 3+ years, and $100K+, and not use the professional degree you obtain? I am struggling to find a more tactful way to say this, but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

You would be far better off taking the tuition money that you will spend on law school and using that as capital for these "entrepreneurial ventures."

Law school is a bad investment in this economy. Coming from a recent grad.

100% agree with this.

You might as well go to medical school because you plan to become a professional athlete and you want some background in human physiology.

I can't say whether law school is a bad investment over the long term now, but I have had to seriously revise my ROI and payback period estimates.

NYBIGLAW is never a bad investment, morans.

Originally Posted by bach

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quick question for you guys-

I'm a sophomore at IU Bloomington considering transferring to a "better" school. The thing is, I'm set to graduate in three years and my parents would appreciate it if they didn't have to pay for an extra year. Even though I don't really like my school, I wouldn't mind sticking around for the above reason, but not if it would significantly affect my chances of getting into a T-14 school.

Does the strength of one's undergraduate institution play an important role in law school admissions? Enough of a role to justify a year's worth of tuition?

My data is quite old (as am I) but back in the 80's I can assure you that at least some of the Top 10 law schools (currently in Top 10) placed substantial emphasis on the perceived quality of your undergraduate school. I was explicitly told by the Dean of Admissions at two top law schools that my GPA from my second-tier state school was dramatically discounted. I suspect that today the situation is no better or perhaps even worse -- e.g. assuming equal LSATs and identical majors, a 3.5 GPA at Northwestern or UVA will easily trump a 4.0 from IU at top schools, including top state schools such as University of Michigan.

Originally Posted by deaddog

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My data is quite old (as am I) but back in the 80's I can assure you that at least some of the Top 10 law schools (currently in Top 10) placed substantial emphasis on the perceived quality of your undergraduate school. I was explicitly told by the Dean of Admissions at two top law schools that my GPA from my second-tier state school was dramatically discounted. I suspect that today the situation is no better or perhaps even worse -- e.g. assuming equal LSATs and identical majors, a 3.5 GPA at Northwestern or UVA will easily trump a 4.0 from IU at top schools, including top state schools such as University of Michigan.

I think the situation has changed. Every law school is jockeying for a higher U.S. News rank, and the rankings account heavily for GPA averages, but do not weigh students' undergraduate schools at all.

Mafoofan, Harvard Law or Stanford Law... and why?

Originally Posted by yerfdog

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100% agree with this.

You might as well go to medical school because you plan to become a professional athlete and you want some background in human physiology.

I can't say whether law school is a bad investment over the long term now, but I have had to seriously revise my ROI and payback period estimates.
I also agree, and I am a recent grad of law school as well.

I like how you guys are determining your careers based on ROI.

Originally Posted by LuxeStyles

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Mafoofan, Harvard Law or Stanford Law... and why?

Easy answer:

Depends on which coast you plan to work on.

East Coast; Boston, NYC, Delaware, Washington, etc, Harvard is no contest.

West Coast; Stanford is no contest.

Chicago or Texas. . . probably Harvard as well.

Do you really think a law education is really a bad investment? It may be a bit frustrating being a recent law school graduate but no industry is really doing well and over the next 30 or 40 years of whatever career you follow it will give you a real advantage. Even if you apply for jobs that are not directly legally related it gives you an edge.

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

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I like how you guys are determining your careers based on ROI.

^The law is no place for idealists unless you are a trust fund baby. Facking hippy.

And yes, I do believe it is a bad investment when considering the amount of debt the average law school graduate incurs. Very few, if any, industries have taken the slash and burn mentality that is now set in the minds of BIGLAW all over this country.

It is very nice to talk about how wonderful education is, but the bottom line is that like everything else, it is a business.

On a per student basis it would be cheaper to hire top-partners at Vault 10 firms to teach than it is to go to law school. Something is wrong with that. Here is my quick math:

1. Student pays $40k per year tuition $20k per 16 week semester, 15 hours per week in class = $240 per hour. Lets say $40 p/h goes to other cost and make it an even $200.

2. Lets say a given class has 50 students at $200 per hour = $10K per class

3.Class meets twice a week for 2 hours for a normal 16 week semester = 64 Hours
32 Hours x $10K = $320K

3. Professor Spends 200 Hours preparing for class per semester, grading etc.) = 264 hours TOTAL

4. Professors billable rate is $1k per hour (very few attorneys can command this, my NY based securities managing partner was $695 p/h and that is partly because he had to cut time and depend on the court to approve attorneys fees). That is $264K TOTAL...hell, you can the partner a $50k per year secretary for the whole year and have some $$$ left over! Obviously this is not a perfect example, but demonstrates that perhaps law school tuition is a bit wacky, at least for those who paid full price.


Law school tuition has gone up at a far greater rate than inflation,

http://www.collegenews.com/index.php...flation_73829/

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercen...=1138701909390 (a 2006 article that acurately predicated what is happening now)

The average (non-Biglaw) salary has gone down when adjusted for inflation.

http://members.cox.net/mathmistakes/zeroreturn.htm (explaining 0 return)

The WSJ (subscription) had the best article on the topic see Hard Case: Job Market Wanes for U.S. Lawyers
Growth of Legal Sector Lags Broader Economy; Law Schools Proliferate
By AMIR EFRATI
September 24, 2007; Page A1

The average law grad graduates with a reported $80k in debt, I would assume the actual figure is higher. I had significant help, worked during school (more than I should have), and even so I graduated with $75k+ in debt. In a perfect world ROI would not be a determining factor, but in real life your loan repayment starts less than a year after graduation, it is not discharge-able, and entry level salaries, if you can get a job are below those of a good secretary.

US News reported that 75% of attorneys would do something different if they had the chance. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech...reers_poor.htm

That said, I agree that my earnings potential might be higher in the long (long long long) run than that of someone else. I actually sort of like some aspects of law. Many of the current issues are faced by younger lawyers, and understandably the general reception will not be favorable. Lawyers are not highly regarded in many circles and are thought to make a lot of money when in fact the exact opposite is true in many cases. It is a bit of a slap in the fact to be a bi-lingual published author with experience in NYC litigation to be told that more than 60% of your salary will go to the fed gov in one way or another (taxes/loans), that you need to pay hundreds more for maintaining a license while the secretary makes $15/$20k more to work less hours with a HS degree. Even if $ is removed from the equation, most people in the field dislike it!

Bottom line...if there were less lawyers, and therefore less merit-less litigation/BS doc review etc. and costs were more in line with actual entry-level salary, perhaps the current issues could be mitigated. Fat chance though.

Just out of curiosity, how does one get to be a lobbyist pulling down the insane high 6-7 figure salary?

Litigating and extorting companies for $$$ seems like a better gig than sitting at a desk all day doing BIG law.

Originally Posted by samblau

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It is very nice to talk about how wonderful education is, but the bottom line is that like everything else, it is a business.

That sounds very big-timer cynical and rational, but what does it mean? Let's accept your premise that "education . . . is a business", even though it's a gross oversimplification at best. How does that bear on the issue of whether you should make your life choices based on estimated financial ROI? Ice cream's a business as well, but my preference for vanilla over chocolate won't change just because you demonstrate that chocolate ice cream is produced more efficiently than vanilla ice cream. In fact, you could charge 10% more for vanilla and I'd still choose it over chocolate.

That said, I'm not sure how oman comes to the conclusion that entrepeneurship is a bigger roll of the dice than law school. Assuming your goals are purely financial, the up-front, fixed cost of law school is substantial. That's not necessarily the case with entrepeurship.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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That sounds very big-timer cynical and rational, but what does it mean? Let's accept your premise that "education . . . is a business", even though it's a gross oversimplification at best. How does that bear on the issue of whether you should make your life choices based on estimated financial ROI?

ROI is a factor, not the factor. If I could be an environmental lawyer for $60k, or a BigLaw lawyer for $160k, I would be highly inclined to choose the former. If at 21 I could have secured a job for $30k and worked my way up as opposed to spending $100k+ to be unemployed for nearly half the time since I graduated...I cannot see how I could justify choosing the latter. As I stated, long term ROI might favor the law school decision, but all of the trends I see suggest that it does not. If at a base level you enjoy law and a field besides law, and the non-legal field will 1. pay more or the same and 2. the non-legal field has a less expensive barrier to entry I think ROI is an excellent way to help make your decision. I think the starting salaries that are advertised by the schools is a severe detriment to the profession as many people, who but for the money would not consider law, take the plunge and wind up very unhappy with a huge chunk of debt. Keep in mind that the law school decision is made at age 20/21 for many people, if not earlier. At that age most people are very naive...and if an accurate ROI was presented to them, I think the application figures would be severely different, especially amongst newly minted undergraduates.

I know my opinions are very one-sided...I have dealt with 30+ y/o female who cry to me all the time BC they feel they will never be able to afford, time wise and financially to have a child. I have friends who attended good schools, and even with some parental support cannot get any job, even crappy $35k PI gigs as they are told "we know you will try and leave". Lastly, look at the statistics on depression, alcoholism, drug abuse and sadly, suicide amongst lawyers. especially young ones They are very high. $ is not everything, but there is a terrible problem with the profession, and it needs to be addressed. Rethinking the law school cost/admission structure will not fix everything, but it would certainly be a good start.

Originally Posted by theincumbent

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^The law is no place for idealists unless you are a trust fund baby. Facking hippy.

And yes, I do believe it is a bad investment when considering the amount of debt the average law school graduate incurs. Very few, if any, industries have taken the slash and burn mentality that is now set in the minds of BIGLAW all over this country.

Hippy? Lulz. I am a corporate management consulting tool. I make more than you.

Your career should not be about ROI, it should be about how happy it makes you.