Why do audiophiles elevate their cables?

[Artisan Fan]

The reason nanosecond and perhaps picosecond jitter is audible is not because the human ear is sensitive to such things, but because the audio equipment used is so badly designed that they react to incredibly miniscule differences in timing. Good equipment will never let you hear jitter of any level.

This is not true. I am referencing test equipment that in fact does capture this level of timing difference. Audio Precision gear can plot a spectral analysis of jitter at these levels.

I believe that there are aspects we don't understand and are not aware of.

I believe that there are a host of factors that improve/contribute to high quality audio that are well understood.

Well I agree on both points, but what I have found in doing professional recordings is that the human ear is remarkably sensitive and can hear differences that are not readily picked up in test gear.

The darkfield elevators fall into that last class. Perhaps raising speaker wires does improve the sound, I don't know. I do know that the reasoning for the claims made on that website are massively specious. The language is overblown and sounds good to non-technical people, but physicists laugh at it.

I think this is where we differ as I am aware that cables can hold a charge and I find the explanation reasonable.

 

[itsstillmatt]

I think I need to join an audiophile forum. It is just amazing that after spending 10 ages arguing about things I can neither fathom nor pronounce, you guys are now arguing over the effectiveness of juice cups in eliminating the remaining sound problems not fixed by all of the tecnical and expensive stuff.

 

[grimslade]

That web site is totally brilliant.

I have to say though that there's a certain irony in a group of men who regularly debate the relative merits of $2,000-$3,000 shoes mocking others for caring about their speaker cables. Me, I count myself fortunate that I have never "learned" to appreciate high-end audio equipment. Leaves more money for the shoes.

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

Mpingos are so 1999. Shunyata TFW!



You may have to try harder, as the audio frans already have this:

http://www.machinadynamica.com/

I don't know whether to get the clock first or the rocks in the plastic bag.

--Andre

 

[Artisan Fan]

I have to say though that there's a certain irony in a group of men who regularly debate the relative merits of $2,000-$3,000 shoes mocking others for caring about their speaker cables.

I think I need to join an audiophile forum. It is just amazing that after spending 10 ages arguing about things I can neither fathom nor pronounce, you guys are now arguing over the effectiveness of juice cups in eliminating the remaining sound problems not fixed by all of the tecnical and expensive stuff.

I know that you are not into stereos Matt but you would be surprised how small changes can matter in a high end sound system. I wish I could explain more clearly and scientifically why some of these tricks of the trade work. Although I'm an analytical person by nature, sometime ago I decided that in audio having a more practical, hands on approach has a lot of value. When we do live to 2 track recordings here in Atlanta sometimes even just trying different power cords and outlets have an impact on our test tracks.

I will see if my buddy Dave will let me post some of his recording session photos from the better sessions. I took some myself of our session with Livingston Taylor (James' brother).

 

[kronik]

Originally Posted by kronik

Outlaw still is regarded pretty highly; they're not up there with Bryston in regards to prestige, etc. but very good, nonetheless.

Earthquake Cinenova Grande, for reference.

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

This is not true. I am referencing test equipment that in fact does capture this level of timing difference. Audio Precision gear can plot a spectral analysis of jitter at these levels.

You are confusing a measuring instrument with audio equipment. Audio equipment is supposed to be immune to jitter, because jitter negatively affects reproduction quality. Measuring instruments are sensitive to such phenomena because they are designed to measure such things, and they are used in a completely different way than audio equipment.

But I still don't see how this is related to the ability of humans to hear nanosecond or picosecond differences. I can measure the roughness of a shoe sole to micron precision, but that doesn't mean I can feel such roughness.

Originally Posted by grimslade

I have to say though that there's a certain irony in a group of men who regularly debate the relative merits of $2,000-$3,000 shoes mocking others for caring about their speaker cables.

Or anything else absurdly expensive. The big difference between most people into clothes and audiophiles is that clothing people buy expensive shoes because they like it for what it is, and that's good enough. Audio people always feel the need to have some technical reason to explain why their choice is superior. As you can see in this thread, many of these technical reasons are completely bogus.

In fact, the only reason for the existence this thread was because an audiophile needed to share his technically bogus reasons for elevating his cables. If he'd just left it as, "It sounds better to me, but I don't know why", I don't think we'd be here right now.

The Machina Dynamica site is a great imitation of the mad-libs engineering jargon audio tweak companies churn out to sell their wares.

--Andre

 

[Artisan Fan]

Audio people always feel the need to have some technical reason to explain why their choice is superior.

Only some audiophiles. If it sounds good to my ears then that is good enough to me.

I posted the Shunyata page because I feel it offers up a decent explanation on why elevated cables sound better. I am trying to open up some closed minds on the board here and make them aware of what is possible in audio....just trying to share my experiences in audio.

There is lots of voodoo in audio that I don't agree with or hear a difference in...things like Machina Dynamica, Tice electron clocks, mpingo discs, sonic holography devices, etc. I prefer to focus on things that work based on my personal experience.

The good news is there are many tweaks that one can implement to raise the sound quality of anyone's stereo...speaker placement, room acoustics, power line conditioning, decent cabling, equipment isolation, etc.

 

[GQgeek]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Only some audiophiles. If it sounds good to my ears then that is good enough to me.

I posted the Shunyata page because I feel it offers up a decent explanation on why elevated cables sound better. I am trying to open up some closed minds on the board here and make them aware of what is possible in audio....just trying to share my experiences in audio.

There is lots of voodoo in audio that I don't agree with or hear a difference in...things like Machina Dynamica, Tice electron clocks, mpingo discs, sonic holography devices, etc. I prefer to focus on things that work based on my personal experience.

The good news is there are many tweaks that one can implement to raise the sound quality of anyone's stereo...speaker placement, room acoustics, power line conditioning, decent cabling, equipment isolation, etc.

AF, the point is that if you'd actually ever studied physics, you'd realize how incredibly bogus the Shunyata page is. I haven't really been following the audiophile scene for a while so I don't know when elevated cables came on to the scene, but those are some pretty ridiculous claims.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Has anybody studied the difference in sound when using juice cups, styrafoam cups, keg cups and sippy cups?

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

The big difference between most people into clothes and audiophiles is that clothing people buy expensive shoes because they like it for what it is, and that's good enough.
Whoa, major mental slips here. You're talking to Artisan Fran, after all.

Originally Posted by GQGeek

AF, the point is that if you'd actually ever studied physics, you'd realize how incredibly bogus the Shunyata page is.
Nah ah. AF only studies talking points, and only those that support his opinions. Physics is too impersonal.

 

[Guy Smiley]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

Audio equipment is supposed to be immune to jitter, because jitter negatively affects reproduction quality.

Wait I'm confused. What do you mean, Andre? Isn't any ADC or DAC a potential jitter source?

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Guy Smiley

Wait I'm confused. What do you mean, Andre? Isn't any ADC or DAC a potential jitter source?

The source of jitter is in the clock to the DAC or ADC. A well-designed DAC or ADC will filter jitter to a level that's below human audibility. What that level is is something that's still being debated.

There's always jitter because there's no such thing as a perfect clock, but a good design filters out jitter. The Benchmark DAC1 is such an example. Until Stereophile started using an AP2 test set in their latest issue, the DAC1's jitter was below what their National Instruments-based analyzer could measure.

--Andre

 

[Guy Smiley]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

There's always jitter because there's no such thing as a perfect clock, but a good design filters out jitter. The Benchmark DAC1 is such an example.

Hehe oh ok. I must say, you strike me as an audiophile

. I don't mean that disparagingly at all--you can still be an audiophile and not believe in magic cables and whatnot...

As for me, I've never listened for jitter, and I don't know what it sounds like, so a $150 Sony CD player from Best Buy suits me just fine. It's not necessarily "designed badly". Sony just knows there needs to be a product for the 99% of people aren't going to spend $1000 on a jitter-free DAC.

John

 

[Stazy]

I didn't understand 3/4 of the posts in this thread but somehow, it was still very entertaining.

 

[Artisan Fan]

There is always some timing distortion in a DAC John. I think where Andre and I differ is at what level it is audible. Using a variety of master clocks in the studio I suspect it is in the picosecond range. Some experts like Julian Dunn felt it to be in the nanosecond range. We are clearly talking small differences but this is one factor that the vast majority of the audiophile community feels is important.

Now the reality is some people are fine with a Bose stereo system and I have no problem at all with that. I just want folks to enjoy the music first and foremost. But it is also true that some of us have developed over time a set of critical listening skills and can hear some subtle differences on various acoustical works. That ultimately leads us to try new interconnects, power cords, speaker cables, line conditioners, isolation devices under the tube gear, etc. It is in fact very similar to the connoisseurship we find among those of us who want the perfect shoe or finely made suit jacket collar. For some Armani is fine, for others Rubinacci is the goal. Many audiophiles search for the best masterings in order to get closer to the magic that happened in the studio or concert. For others music is an elegant wallpaper.