What's wrong with black?

[dokelroth]

Originally Posted by Tomasso

Yep.

 

[jyook]

Originally Posted by UTVol085

In Korea, where I am studying at the moment every suit is black. Blue is not available except for custom made. Every RTW is black or black pinstriped.

So since I'm Asian, I won't look like an AmJack stateside if I go with black?

So why all these questions? I found a bespoke guy not too far away from me... I figure I should get him to make me a real nice suit for nice occasions...

I'll update to some inexpensive OTR for business use since I don't think it's cool to out dress my superiors... It looks like there are some good deals out there for some decent OTR...

 

[jyook]

I would also like to add that I had no idea there were so many rules involved with dressing up... Some are just obvious to me (ie. don't wear a tux to a funeral), but this black suit thing surprised me... That other thread I read with Manton though very informative (didn't know what kissing buttons were until now) was bordering on insanity IMO due to the level of passion involved... At times, I was laughing ****** off...

Don't get me wrong... I really love this place now... I feel like I'm really learning something about style and sartorial elegance...

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by jyook

I would also like to add that I had no idea there were so many rules involved with dressing up...

Neither did I. Frankly, I consider a lot of the associations people cook up for fabrics and suit styles to be counterfactual.

For some reason the black suit is a source of controversy here. It doesnt matter how many people in your workaday wouldnt notice the color of your suit, there is some Yankees-Red Sox or Neo-con/Left-wing schism over the black suit which is akin to literary violence. I have noticed that no one is allowed neutrality in this space. I do not wear black suits for work and yet I feel like I am discounted as a "Black suit wearer" if I do not accept some's placement of it in the "outre" box.


The closest reconstruction I can deduce is that someone decided to relegate the true black suit to the tasteless bin in order to lend validity to their other choices. To be tasteful, one needs to decide what is not tasteful, and the black suit caught it in the teeth. And it seems to grow with those who catch on and want to also be critics.

Those who accept the black suit seem to be more accepting generally and those who do not like it seem to believe there is a hierarchical order to every single item in a man's wardrobe. And that would be fine except that this same viewpoint seems to conveniently shrug off the cut and quality of the suit, its fabric, purity-of-black color and texture. Additionally, they don't seem to absorb most people's obliviousness to monochromatic color differences.

Additionally, I do not understand why I should care what the anti-black suit crowd would make of me wearing a black suit. If people know me, then the suit really can't harm me much. If they don't and they are making decisions about me while wearing one, what sort of people am I dealing with that they aren't taking the rest of me into account? Should I worry about what they think of me or am I dealing with people who might not have anything better to do but high horse me on wearing a "tasteless black suit"? Maybe the real problem is dealing with someone who can't tell my suit is custom made from the best wool and thinks a charcoal suit from Target is superior. Am I to think this person has any influence?

Or, is there simply contentment that they are not wearing a black suit while I am? I don't necessarily hold the answers to all these questions, I do know that somehow I am apprehensive about persons who hold such a strong conviction with regard to the black suit and what it says about the wearer.

If you don't like the black suit, then OK but just revel in your choice without a need to make a rule why no one should wear it. I can't stand light grey suits or those medium toned blue-grey ones that some call RAF blue but as far as anyone else is concerned this is my personal preference and they can wear them to their heart's content. I will probably consider the wearer "showy" in terms of wanting to demonstrate that they got something different out of the fabric book but the thought will be both shallow and fleeting and I will be happy to judge the man on his character and abilities.

Someone related a story to me that they were wearing a longstanding city outfit of black and white houndstooth jacket with black flannel pants. Someone he met and holding themselves out to be in the know about such matters pointed out that the black pants were "wrong" and that charcoal should be worn instead, irrespective of the fact that well heeled manhattanites have been wearing this city combo for a long time. I gather the comment was made to announce the delicacy and refinement of the speaker but the alarming bit is if he really belonged to that set, he never wouldve pointed out the "wrongness" of the black pants, no matter how bad he thought they looked. Such may be the difference between those that are and those that want to be.

 

[lakewolf]

Originally Posted by Dewey

"Light black" is charcoal, Lakewolf.

Whites/grays/blacks are measured in percentages, yes? Anything more than 0% or less than 100% is a gray. Most eyes in most conditions would identify a dark gray as "black." But in my experience a "black suit" with a hint of lightness is much easier to wear. This is the "charcoal" that the anti-black-suit people propose as an easy improvement. If you wear a suit like you describe among a group of men in truly black suits, your suit is going to look more gray by comparison. It's softer, the fabric has more depth, it's more appealling to the eye, it's warmer, young women will want to stand next to you, etc.

More power to anyone who wants to go out and get themselves the blackety-blackest suit and wear it everywhere. Anyone who has read all these black suit threads and still wants a stark black suit should be able to pull it off.


No It is not charcoal.... You put a charcoal and this together and you'll see the difference.

If charcoal is theoretically more than 70% black, this one is maybe 99% black It is only its little shine that makes it "light-black"


for reference

Charcoal
— Color coordinates —
Hex triplet #464646
RGBB (r, g, b) (70, 70, 70)
HSV (h, s, v) (-°, 0%, 30%)

Black
-- Color coordinates --
Hex triplet #000000
RGBB (r, g, b) (0, 0, 0)
HSV (h, s, v) (-°, -%, 0%)

P.S. my darkest charcoal suit is maybe 85% black

 

[DocHolliday]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

Neither did I. Frankly, I consider a lot of the associations people cook up for fabrics and suit styles to be counterfactual.

For some reason the black suit is a source of controversy here. It doesnt matter how many people in your workaday wouldnt notice the color of your suit, there is some Yankees-Red Sox or Neo-con/Left-wing schism over the black suit which is akin to literary violence. I have noticed that no one is allowed neutrality in this space. I do not wear black suits for work and yet I feel like I am discounted as a "Black suit wearer" if I do not accept some's placement of it in the "outre" box.


The closest reconstruction I can deduce is that someone decided to relegate the true black suit to the tasteless bin in order to lend validity to their other choices. To be tasteful, one needs to decide what is not tasteful, and the black suit caught it in the teeth. And it seems to grow with those who catch on and want to also be critics.

I don't think there's any question that black suits were once considered inappropriate, do you? Black was a formal color, for formal events. When I went to pick out my first suit on my own, my mom's warning to me was "no black." So it's not something invented by the message boards.

The question, in my mind, is whether that rule, devised in a time that embraced such rules to sort people into social categories, should still have bearing on us today, or on those from places that lacked the taboo. Black certainly has been worn before in the day in the West, and it's only if we get locked into the mindset of a certain period that we must accept its prohibition. When do we decide that we've moved on and that black is once again OK? I'm not sure, but I know that are still folks, even those without online avatars, who still consider them questionable.

 

[Holdfast]

I couldn't resist picking up a black suit to sell on today, "inspired" by this thread. I'd say that a deeply saturated black in a modern cut can work very nicely as a night-out suit.

The controversy surrounding this colour is always fascinating to see.

 

[jyook]

I checked out Holdfast's black suit for sale... Why wouldn't something like that work for a night out or a wedding? I think it looks real sharp and festive with a tie like that...

 

[Dewey]

FNB, I would say you are projecting, and if you are not trolling, you are certainly stirring the pot.

There's a lot of thought and history that has gone into men's clothes. The OP asked for it, we've given it to him, and now he can do as he pleases. There is no Yankees/Red Sox thing here, no matter how hard you cheer for it to appear.

The internet message boards focus a lot on black suits because they are wildly popular today. Ten years from now, when everyone is wearing blue or brown suits, people may be debating "what is wrong with a blue suit?" Well, a blue suit, to some, looks too bankerish or politician like. There was a time when every member of Congress and the Senate wore mainly blue suits. And a brown suit, to others, looks like ****. There was a time when the brown suit was widely scorned by men of taste and fashion.

The point of loving and hating on particular items is to build and practice a set of sartorial principles that work for you.

And Lakewolf, I still think your suit is charcoal. If it's not 100%, and there are lots of suits that are solid, 100% black, then I would call it charcoal, which might not be described best as a specific % but as the upper range. So I'd say I see lighter charcoals and darker charcoals. It's gray as it approaches black. And as for the meaning of "charcoal," open up a bag of Kingsford and there it is. I admit it's a tedious debate, but I've worn very dark gray suits among men in black and you can see the difference. (I have also worn black suits and would not be ashamed to do so, in the right circumstances, if my charcoal suits were not available.) Just as you can see the difference between your dark, dark gray ("light black" you call it) and the more usual dark gray. I do think that when the "black suit" came into vogue in the 1990s, there were a bunch of dark gray suits in the mens' stores that were not black enough for men who wanted to look like Grace Jones, one of the Blues Brothers, or some other glamorous person famed for sporting black.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

I don't think there's any question that black suits were once considered inappropriate, do you?

Somewhat:

http://www.filmnoirbuff.com/article/...ck-suit-part-1

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

Black was a formal color, for formal events. When I went to pick out my first suit on my own, my mom's warning to me was "no black." So it's not something invented by the message boards.

Not invented, just obsessed over to the point of mindless hysteria.

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

The question, in my mind, is whether that rule, devised in a time that embraced such rules to sort people into social categories, should still have bearing on us today, or on those from places that lacked the taboo. Black certainly has been worn before in the day in the West, and it's only if we get locked into the mindset of a certain period that we must accept its prohibition. When do we decide that we've moved on and that black is once again OK? I'm not sure, but I know that are still folks, even those without online avatars, who still consider them questionable.


There is no doubt in my mind that the taboo against or preference to avoid black suits is at an end, at least amongst those not concerend with the details of men's style on a daily basis. I have no doubts that at one time, in the USA, if nowhere else, it was considered a rakish choice but my concerns surround those who reference the past to demand the present and then claim this is not reactionary.

I further wonder what exactly the upshot of all this is. If I walk into the workplace in a black vs. a darkest chacoal suit and one of these black suit jihadists thinks I am tasteless, what exactly do they have the right to do to me?

What would I, what should I say to someone who pointed out that my black suit was wrong, tasteless etc...? How would you react?

 

[Brian278]

Originally Posted by jyook

I checked out Holdfast's black suit for sale... Why wouldn't something like that work for a night out or a wedding? I think it looks real sharp and festive with a tie like that...

That looks like a very nice suit and the fit and details in and of themselves differentiate it from the cheap, Men's Wearhouse-looking black suit often favored by the young and uninformed, but I still wouldn't wear it to a wedding, where I think navy or medium gray are more appropriate. It could look great for a night out, as long as you don't pair it with a dark shiny shirt in that pseudo-gangster look you always see AmJacks attempting.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by Dewey

FNB, I would say you are projecting, and if you are not trolling, you are certainly stirring the pot.

I don't think so. If I wanted to troll, something I have no time for, I would have used the abortion/anti-abortionist comparison.

Originally Posted by Dewey

There's a lot of thought and history that has gone into men's clothes. The OP asked for it, we've given it to him, and now he can do as he pleases. There is no Yankees/Red Sox thing here, no matter how hard you cheer for it to appear.

I don't think there is a lot of history. A lot of judgment and that's fine but people should just say they don't like something without hiding behind sections of a wall that were never there.

Originally Posted by Dewey

The internet message boards focus a lot on black suits because they are wildly popular today. Ten years from now, when everyone is wearing blue or brown suits, people may be debating "what is wrong with a blue suit?" Well, a blue suit, to some, looks too bankerish or politician like. There was a time when every member of Congress and the Senate wore mainly blue suits. And a brown suit, to others, looks like ****. There was a time when the brown suit was widely scorned by men of taste and fashion.

I don't think it's about the color of the suit at all. I think this is some metaphysical black hole the likes of which seems to exist for no other item or issue. I also think you help illustrate my concern, that those who dislike the black suit get the most upset with those who like it or are indifferent toward it. Considering the weight of rules, history, propriety and precedent on their side one would think they would be the more comfortable element but they seem to become the most animated and personal over the issue; questioning credentials, sincerity and, ultimately,suggesting troublemaking.

Originally Posted by Dewey

The point of loving and hating on particular items is to build and practice a set of sartorial principles that work for you.


But this is rarely about what works for someone themself, and more often about what it does for or to the other fellow.

Originally Posted by Dewey

And Lakewolf, I still think your suit is charcoal. If it's not 100%, and there are lots of suits that are solid, 100% black, then I would call it charcoal, which might not be described best as a specific % but as the upper range. So I'd say I see lighter charcoals and darker charcoals. It's gray as it approaches black. And as for the meaning of "charcoal," open up a bag of Kingsford and there it is. I admit it's a tedious debate, but I've worn very dark gray suits among men in black and you can see the difference. (I have also worn black suits and would not be ashamed to do so, in the right circumstances, if my charcoal suits were not available.) Just as you can see the difference between your dark, dark gray ("light black" you call it) and the more usual dark gray. I do think that when the "black suit" came into vogue in the 1990s, there were a bunch of dark gray suits in the mens' stores that were not black enough for men who wanted to look like Grace Jones, one of the Blues Brothers, or some other glamorous person famed for sporting black.

ANd again, the fear of that micro-percentage from darkest charcoal to black that associates a man with so many presumably unattractive attributes. I doubt whether the white or brown suit ever got this much concern.

I could see if you had only two suits to choose from for a big meeting and you chose the white one, how it would cause distractions and might even get a word about "appropriateness" from a superior or, if you were the superior, titters from others in attendance. But, if you chose the black one and it was in all respects a normally cut and well constructed suit from good material, then I would find it odd if someone took you aside and mentioned that "black" was inappropriate for the office.

 

[Roland Loden of Germany]

In Germany wearing black is considered a classic American style originating in New York City. The last I was on holiday there the year being 1998 I went to a loft party in Hoboken (New Jersey) and 95% were wearing black so maybe it is a classic in other regions of the US that I have not yet visited. I did not find the people as elegantly dressed as they found each other and I felt a measure of prejudice to my own wardrobe by some attendants, as the only black item that I wear is bikini cut underpants. I would of done a striptease if I didn't feel a matter of my pale complexion to of also presented a social obstacle as the crowd had a uniformly orange glow I believe as a result of sunning salons.

 

[eg1]

Is it possible that the antipathy is courtesy of prejudices having nothing whatsoever to do with clothing? Perhaps the disdain of "mangiacakes" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=mangiacake) for "the other" (Italians, Portuguese, Jews) who culturally favoured black clothing?

 

[Jared]

Here's the final say: in this day&age, all rules are flexible, but you must know what you're doing to flex them. If you need to ask about a black suit, then you shouldn't own one. If, like FNB, you can write an essay on black suits, then you know how to pull one off.

If black suits appear green in artificial light, does that mean that they're dyed with green-hued dye? And if so, are they not in fact 99% dark-green suits?