what makes a good shoe and why they cost so much

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by furo

So why is it "plain wrong?"

i knew you would ask. it's about the balance of the shoe.

but i want the op to answer the question, thanks

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by fritzl

i knew you would ask. it's about the balance of the shoe.

but i want the op to answer the question, thanks
He has:

Originally Posted by DWFII

Search for "shoe findings".

I might add, in passing, that despite popular opinion to the contrary, Topy needs to be put on when the shoe is brand new for best results...unworn, IOW.

The whole point of topy is to protect the sole from wear and in that process to protect the stitches that hold the sole on. Wearing the shoe embeds grit and road grime and street oils and so forth into the surface of the outsole.

All of that has to be removed in order to create a surface which will afford a secure bond between the Topy, which has no pores, and the leather, which does. That means grinding away a certain amount of the leather. In some instances, grinding away the surface of the outsole will expose and even damage the stitching.

So you not only lose some of the substance of the outsole ...which the Topy is intended to protect...but you expose or damage the stitches which the Topy is supposed to protect.

The whole procedure is "iffy" enough when the outsole is pristine...meaning only the surface wax has to be removed...but it is much more complicated when the sole has been worn and is consequently not only dirty but of an uneven substance due to that wear.

I like Topy, don't get me wrong, but it is no magic bullet and needs to be monitored and replaced immediately it gets thin...because if you wear a hole in it, you're right back to the same problem of uneven outsoles and needing to prepare the surface by grinding away the dirt and tar.
...and in summary, he disagrees with you.

 

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by apropos

He has: ...and in summary, he disagrees with you.
such is life. understood, i'm talking about custom made shoes, who have a better balance due to their nature. wheras a rtw shoe is more "sensible". i've been told by my makers, if they have to do an aftermarket job, they want to see the blueprint of the gait on the sole. in order the topy can be applied more accurately. this is certainly much more evident for rtw. in summary: a shoe should be built with the choice of sole from the scratch. ps: my gut feeling tells me, that you are a griper, no more or less.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by apropos

He has: ...and in summary, he disagrees with you.
If I understand his point, technically, I think I agree with Fritzl...there is a balance issue especially if Topy is applied after the fact. But that said, I think it is a very minor one. I have had extremely knowledgeable and well-regarded lastmakers tell me that any last can be raised or lowered an eighth inch in heel height. I don't regard that as license (I don't take such liberties, myself) but if it is true then adding Topy...which is about a mm thick isn't going to disturb the balance much. As a matter of fact, if you think about it, the balance on a leather soled shoe will change slightly as the shoe is worn, as well. Probably disturbing the balance just about as much as adding Topy. If Topy is ordered with the shoe, the maker will balance the shoe with the Topy. As for the rest, I stand by my original statement...which, I think also included the broader observation that I am not convinced that Topy is any better for traction than leather. I have, over the years, come to the conclusion it is more a matter of how you walk and where you carry your center of gravity.

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by DWFII

If Topy is ordered with the shoe, the maker will balance the shoe with the Topy.
I recall a recent post by Manton, where it appears that the maker (G&G) simply ground off a layer on the sole of his new shoe so that the subsequently applied topy would sit 'flush' - is this 'normal procedure'?

 

[Wrigglez]

Hey, hate to hijack the thread, i was speaking to the only bespoke shoemaker in my state (Victoria) and I enquired as to their sole construction. They said they do not make a Goodyear welt only Blake stitched or Fairstitch welted shoes, DWFII what is your opinion on these construction methods. Are they substandard or acceptable for a bespoke shoe?
Again, apologies for the hijack.
Regards,
Wrigglez

 

[musicguy]

Blake welted shoes are fine for certain circumstances. The soles just won't last as long as Goodyear welted shoes. But having soles last a long time isn't the determining factor in what a good shoe is.

 

[Wrigglez]

mmm i dont have an issue having them resoled if blake dosnt last as long, kinda odd tho that they dont offer Goodyear

 

[Gutman]

I usually topy my wet weather and "heavy" shoes, but others I like to leave alone. If it's a thin soled shoe which has worn down, a topy can be a cheap remedial measure by building up the sole a little and generally cleaning up the shoe. toe taps are more of an issue for me - i hate scuffing and thining around the toe, it really ruins the look of the shoe. it's a crime to topy any shoe with a bevelled sole.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by apropos

I recall a recent post by Manton, where it appears that the maker (G&G) simply ground off a layer on the sole of his new shoe so that the subsequently applied topy would sit 'flush' - is this 'normal procedure'?
See...that doesn't make sense. Why cut the sole thinner when all it takes is a little bit more on the heel stack?

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by Wrigglez

Hey, hate to hijack the thread, i was speaking to the only bespoke shoemaker in my state (Victoria) and I enquired as to their sole construction. They said they do not make a Goodyear welt only Blake stitched or Fairstitch welted shoes, DWFII what is your opinion on these construction methods. Are they substandard or acceptable for a bespoke shoe? Again, apologies for the hijack. Regards, Wrigglez
Blake is different from Fairstiched (called Blake/rapid in some circles). Blake stitches from the insole to the outsole. This allows the threads to wick moisture from the environment into the shoe. And replacing the outsole is problematic for most shoe repair shops. Blake is, in my opinion, about on a par with goodyear construction and only a step up from cement sole construction. Fairstitched, on the other hand, is blake stitched (also called McKay stitched) from the insole to a midsole that is left a little proud of the width of the shoe. Then the outsole is stitched to the midsole using the same machine or techniques that are used when an outsole is stitched to a welted shoe. The blake stitching is protected from the environment and the outsole can be replaced without disturbing the midsole. Theoretically, fairstitched is a good approach, esp. for factory made shoes. But often, because of the additional weight of the midsole, or simply for the sake of expediency, the insole will be replaced by fiberboard or foam rubber cushioning bonded to a thin (very thin) sockliner. This not only reduces weight somewhat, it costs less than using a good quality insole. In my opinion, hand welted is a superior system to either the best goodyear or Fairstitched. It is the most solid method of construction, if only because it forces the maker to use quality materials. And resting on those materials and techniques, it is potentially the most stable and long lived. And, as a bonus, it's easily repairable time after time.

 

[Wrigglez]

cheers, i'll keep looking into it, i'll see if anyone at the shop knows how to hand welt a shoe, i would much rather support a local business than buy hand welted vass if i can help it, though i do like vass!

 

[Dewey]

Great thread. Just read it all start to finish, with patience. Good use of my time. Thank you DWFII.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by Dewey

Great thread. Just read it all start to finish, with patience. Good use of my time. Thank you DWFII.
You're very welcome. It's always refreshing to run across someone who takes the time to actually read through a thread that they are replying to.

 

[alladin]

I was in C&J (London) today as their winter sale has started. Unfortunately, I didn't buy anything as what I liked was not in my size.

The point I wanted to make was, I saw a cross section of their shoes and they use a piece of cardboard/paper under the shank!!!! WTF - I am paying a premium price for a pair of 'all leather' shoes and they use cardboard - not good.

I also went into RM Williams and saw their construction cross section and they use a piece of moulded plastic under the shank. At least RM Williams does not claim to be a high end boot maker unlike C&J.

I'd be interested to know if there is any logical reasoning for using cardboard in shoe making and if this practice is used by the other high end shoe makers - Edward Green and John Lobb. Also, is shoe construction using brass wire screws better than goodyear welted shoes? Comments appreciated, many thanks.