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Voxsartoria's Weekly WAYWRN Subjective and Totally Unfair Digest

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by voxsartoria, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    [​IMG]

    You are arguing with FNB as if he made a legitimate point in good faith, to spur discussion. But of course nothing could be further from the truth. He just saw an opportunity to take (yet another) shot at his endless list of iEnemies.

    A hallmark of serious disputation is some attempt at a modicum of consistency. FNB, however, prefers the any-weapon-at-hand style of argument. Apparel Arts drawings are bad when I and others praise them. But when FNB wants to write an essay called "Moder Day Apparel Arts Man" about someone he likes, then they are good. Apparel Arts essays are terrible and stupid when they are posted on LL. But they are fine when FNB begs tutee to please post his essays on the FNB site.

    Note also the 10 millionth FNB declaraion of his upper class roots and his snobbish denigration of his inferiors. Those of us who admire the drawings are trying to live above our station.

    I have met my share of upper class people in my time, and I have never come across one as insecure about his standing in the haute monde as our Carl. The geniune article is more like Vox, though perhaps a bit more outwardly humble (even if that is a pose).
     
  2. George

    George Senior member

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    To me the message in those old pics are dressing for the occasion. Every pic is in a different local, portraying multiple situations from business to casual to formal events to the horse track to the beach and the clothing reflects the feeling/formality/casualness of the occasion. The accessories, the colors, patterns all reflect a mood congruent to the setting. It is conveying a mode/attitude of dressing that is pretty much lost today. Most men have generic year round wardrobes that denote "one suit for all reasons and all seasons". SF posters excluded. Go to a meeting or a party and see how similar everyone looks. You'll know what I'm saying.

    Good points and well said.
     
  3. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    To me the message in those old pics are dressing for the occasion. Every pic is in a different local, portraying multiple situations from business to casual to formal events to the horse track to the beach and the clothing reflects the feeling/formality/casualness of the occasion. The accessories, the colors, patterns all reflect a mood congruent to the setting. It is conveying a mode/attitude of dressing that is pretty much lost today. Most men have generic year round wardrobes that denote "one suit for all reasons and all seasons". SF posters excluded. Go to a meeting or a party and see how similar everyone looks. You'll know what I'm saying.

    I agree with this, but it's more than that. There is a great deal of variety in those old illustrations. Not just in terms of occasion, but also color, cut, styling, texture, patterns, combinations, you name it. It's a very rich satorial universe, even if to some extent it is imagined, and was even known to be such at the time. There is nothing that compares to it in our time.
     
  4. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    To me the message in those old pics are dressing for the occasion. Every pic is in a different local, portraying multiple situations from business to casual to formal events to the horse track to the beach and the clothing reflects the feeling/formality/casualness of the occasion. The accessories, the colors, patterns all reflect a mood congruent to the setting. It is conveying a mode/attitude of dressing that is pretty much lost today. Most men have generic year round wardrobes that denote "one suit for all reasons and all seasons". SF posters excluded. Go to a meeting or a party and see how similar everyone looks. You'll know what I'm saying.

    Hey Manton, that's what I said.
     
  5. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You are arguing with FNB as if he made a legitimate point in good faith, to spur discussion. But of course nothing could be further from the truth. He just saw an opportunity to take (yet another) shot at his endless list of iEnemies.

    A hallmark of serious disputation is some attempt at a modicum of consistency. FNB, however, prefers the any-weapon-at-hand style of argument. Apparel Arts drawings are bad when I and others praise them. But when FNB wants to write an essay called "Moder Day Apparel Arts Man" about someone he likes, then they are good. Apparel Arts essays are terrible and stupid when they are posted on LL. But they are fine when FNB begs tutee to please post his essays on the FNB site.

    Note also the 10 millionth FNB declaraion of his upper class roots and his snobbish denigration of his inferiors. Those of us who admire the drawings are trying to live above our station.

    I have met my share of upper class people in my time, and I have never come across one as insecure about his standing in the haute monde as our Carl. The geniune article is more like Vox, though perhaps a bit more outwardly humble (even if that is a pose).


    I'm not saying your observations and claims aren't true. But I figure that it's best to talk to people as if they are acting in good faith, until I am overtly insulted. Even assuming FNB is as passive-aggressive as you describe, I'd rather not waste the effort playing that game. I know you two have a different sort of history, which may justify more confrontational behavior between you, but I'm merely a bystander.
     
  6. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Hey Manton, that's what I said.

    What I mean is that while the settings are great, and they make the plates much richer overall, you can delink the ensembles from the setting and still learn something of find inspiration.

    [​IMG]

    This seems to be some kind of pastoral or perhaps academic setting. By the standards of the day, what he is wearing fit right in. Perhaps that would have been too casual for the city. But today that outfit (minus pipe and perhaps hat) could go anywhere short of a courtroom or boardroom. So what one takes from it is the judicious mixture of the all the elements, in and of themselves.

    There are dozens of plates like that, depicting settings that I will never find myself in, but that I can nonetheless learn something from or derive inspiration from.
     
  7. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I'm not saying your observations and claims aren't true. But I figure that it's best to talk to people as if they are acting in good faith, until I am overtly insulted. Even assuming FNB is as passive-aggressive as you describe, I'd rather not waste the effort playing that game. I know you two have a different sort of history, which may justify more confrontational behavior between you, but I'm merely a bystander.

    You are still missing the point. He is not making a real argument, hence there is nothing for you to engage or respond to. True, his insult was not directed at you personally, but that does not change the fact that his post was nothing more than a petty insult, totally devoid of real content. So by trying to reason with it, you are in the position of arguing with a flat-earther who in his heart knows the earth is round, but claims it is flat as a put-on.

    Which is to say, when you respond, you are playing the game, whether you realize it or not.
     
  8. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Going back to your Shattuck suit Manton - is that one you would classify as draped? If so, why?
     
  9. ManofKent

    ManofKent Senior member

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    Hmm I'm just trying to work out whether or not I was placed next to Manton's shot for contrast or not. Somehow I don't think I've won second prize in a beauty contest...
     
  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You are still missing the point. He is not making a real argument, hence there is nothing for you to engage or respond to. True, his insult was not directed at you personally, but that does not change the fact that his post was nothing more than a petty insult, totally devoid of real content. So by trying to reason with it, you are in the position of arguing with a flat-earther who in his heart knows the earth is round, but claims it is flat as a put-on.

    Which is to say, when you respond, you are playing the game, whether you realize it or not.


    My point was that it isn't obvious on the face of his post that he is insulting anyone. I understand that his prior posts, when viewed together, can be construed as an attack on you--but the degree to which I would feel comfortable acting on such an interpretation is severely limited by the fact that I have not had the personal experience with the issue that you have had. I'm not trying to give myself a free pass because I'm not the one being insulted; I just think it's harder to tell whether it's an insult not being you or someone else who's been around longer.

    Moreover, I guess I don't really care if he really thinks what he said. It represents an opinion worth discussing, genuine or not. Others here have expressed similar thoughts.
     
  11. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    I agree with this, but it's more than that. There is a great deal of variety in those old illustrations. Not just in terms of occasion, but also color, cut, styling, texture, patterns, combinations, you name it. It's a very rich satorial universe, even if to some extent it is imagined, and was even known to be such at the time. There is nothing that compares to it in our time.

    AFAIK it was pretty much an imaginary world, some of those plates are great though and the graphic elegance of select drawings is nice. I'd be afraid of anyone taking them for reality or having the exact same outfits made but aside from that, great stuff.

    In our time the diversity is much higher on style blogs and sites like this one than it was ever possible in AA, which doesn't remove anything from the later.
     
  12. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Really? You think "People who like AA illustrations are just proles trying to live above their station" is a point worth discussing? And you can't see the insult in it?

    If so, I revert to my earlier remark: dense.
     
  13. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Going back to your Shattuck suit Manton - is that one you would classify as draped? If so, why?

    It is unpadded and soft, but there is less drape in the chest than I prefer. However, that is/was Frank's way. I find that the coat wears a bit tight.
     
  14. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    AFAIK it was pretty much an imaginary world

    I think it is depicting something a lot more real than people here seem to assume.
     
  15. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    I think it is depicting something a lot more real than people here seem to assume.
    Dude, having six suits was pretty rare for 99% of people and the kind of activities depicted don't always fit the lifestyle of the other 1%. I guess you could say you caught each character on their "good day" and it would fit, I just keep thinking of a man having 65 suits as being the AA ideal. To be honest it doesn't take anything away from what is interesting in those plates, just like modern day fashion shoots, hyper real fantasies are as good as anything in presenting a coherent universe. In fact you could say that AA was ahead of it's time as the photographers that replaced it didn't pay as much attention to the narrative elements and that level would only come back in the 60s and 70s.
     
  16. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    To be honest it doesn't take anything away from what is interesting in those plates, just like modern day fashion shoots, hyper real fantasies are as good as anything in presenting a coherent universe. In fact you could say that AA was ahead of it's time as the photographers that replaced it didn't pay as much attention to the narrative elements and that level would only come back in the 60s and 70s.

    This is a very good point.
     
  17. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    But those illustrations, if you read the captions, were not trying to depict the average lifestyle. They were overtly about the people at the top, and they served as markers for what the parameters of fashion were, as laid down by the people who set the fashions.
     
  18. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    But those illustrations, if you read the captions, were not trying to depict the average lifestyle. They were overtly about the people at the top, and they served as markers for what the parameters of fashion were, as laid down by the people who set the fashions.
    I really need to read your book (no sycophancy here), I assume that top down fashion is something you present as I sorta see that theme in your posts from time to time. It is still relevant in a sense as the big fabric shows have a huge impact on what will be designed. Cloth producers and their colour/mood surveys and the ensuing product they present are major players in today's world.
     
  19. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Top down fashion was the rule then. It isn't any more.

    All I am saying is, the editors of AA and Esquire claim that the illustrations were based on obseravation. I believe them. That's not to say that they always observed correctly, or that they didn't get it wrong sometimes, or introduce an element of idealization, or sometimes just make shit up. I believe they did.

    But, by and large, I think they reported faithfully what they saw. Hence the illustrations are good examples of the elite styles of dress in New York, London, and fashionable resorts of that time.
     
  20. HORNS

    HORNS Senior member

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    200 years from now, what we are wearing today and what these plates depict will all be lumped together under one style - and the subtleties between now and 70 years ago will not be lost, but will probably be considered irrelevant.
     

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