The SF Brazillian Jiujitsu Thread - fans, competitors, filthy casuals, all are welcome

[LA Guy]

@razorfrazer - thought that I might post this here, but direct it at you. How many of you practitionoers. particularl mid to high level, have styles that differ significantly from that of your coaches?

For example, in kickboxing, which was my base as an MMA fighter, I was fairly powerful, but not a tru power puncher, but I had good cardio, so I was always a pressure fighter, using footwork and volume to trap my opponents and put myselfi in a position in which I am defensively much more sound, and can attack from there and corral the opponent back into the corner,while they have to take a chance to escape. That was a lot like my original coach's style. He was a bulkier, shorter fighter who definitely punched harder than I ever have (tbf, he was a HW, and I was a welterweight to super welterweight) and he would not have been good at a Mayweather style.

Right now, on the other hand, I'm concentrating on BJJ, and my style, especially from the bottom, is very different from my own coach's. He is 6'2" and 190 and very athletic (2x Brazialian national judo champion and Olympic alternate, me = second worst wrestler in high school). So while he plays a lot more of a reactive guard, I play a most systematic guard, with a lot of things like Williams guard and closed guard. I used a lot of overhooks, underhooks, and grips, and closed guard, all things that keep my training partner tight to be sn difficult to use any explosiveness. On top, I am more explosive, with throw bys and X passese. but I also use the over unders a lot, a grinder's techniqie if there ever was one, and a decent Lucas Lepri styl eknee cut, which relies not just on stability, which I apparently do have, but also collar and sleeve grips to prevent the opponent from exploding to their knees as you pass, mainly, in case any one else is reading this, by contracting them into a ball, pulling their arm up by the triceps and forcing their opposite sholder. He, on the other hand, uses a lot more longstep passes, and other passes that require that you beat the opponent to the punch. Luckily, there is no "house style", and people are more or less allowed to develop their own strengths, though we are alls expected to shore up our weaknesses.

I was wondering if anyone else has the same experience, or whether some schools have a "school style" aside from at gym culture, and how the two are related. I trained with RCJ Machado before this (way before this) and it was definitely a bit more traditional, at least back then. Our school is pretty young, just founded in 2016, so not only have we relied on colored belts who had colored belts before joining the gym, and bringijng their own flavor,. but we've also had no one no one who started at the gym as a fresh white belt and been promoted to black. In fact, all the brown belts have had prior experience, and there have only been 2 black belts awarded, one from purple through to black and the other from brown to black.

It's pretty cool being able to have been formational in the culture of more than one gym now,.but I'm genuinely interested in other people's experiences, especially who have stepped into a place with a lot of tradition already. I sorta wonder what it would be like training at say, Romulo Barral's Gracie Barra gym. One of my friends and early mentees, who started as a fresh white belt and graduated college with a fresh blue belt, trains with Gabriel Arges (a world champion) but I haven't had the opportunity to go train with them in CA, yet..

 

[razorfrazer]

@razorfrazer - thought that I might post this here, but direct it at you. How many of you practitionoers. particularl mid to high level, have styles that differ significantly from that of your coaches?

For example, in kickboxing, which was my base as an MMA fighter, I was fairly powerful, but not a tru power puncher, but I had good cardio, so I was always a pressure fighter, using footwork and volume to trap my opponents and put myselfi in a position in which I am defensively much more sound, and can attack from there and corral the opponent back into the corner,while they have to take a chance to escape. That was a lot like my original coach's style. He was a bulkier, shorter fighter who definitely punched harder than I ever have (tbf, he was a HW, and I was a welterweight to super welterweight) and he would not have been good at a Mayweather style.

Right now, on the other hand, I'm concentrating on BJJ, and my style, especially from the bottom, is very different from my own coach's. He is 6'2" and 190 and very athletic (2x Brazialian national judo champion and Olympic alternate, me = second worst wrestler in high school). So while he plays a lot more of a reactive guard, I play a most systematic guard, with a lot of things like Williams guard and closed guard. I used a lot of overhooks, underhooks, and grips, and closed guard, all things that keep my training partner tight to be sn difficult to use any explosiveness. On top, I am more explosive, with throw bys and X passese. but I also use the over unders a lot, a grinder's techniqie if there ever was one, and a decent Lucas Lepri styl eknee cut, which relies not just on stability, which I apparently do have, but also collar and sleeve grips to prevent the opponent from exploding to their knees as you pass, mainly, in case any one else is reading this, by contracting them into a ball, pulling their arm up by the triceps and forcing their opposite sholder. He, on the other hand, uses a lot more longstep passes, and other passes that require that you beat the opponent to the punch. Luckily, there is no "house style", and people are more or less allowed to develop their own strengths, though we are alls expected to shore up our weaknesses.

I was wondering if anyone else has the same experience, or whether some schools have a "school style" aside from at gym culture, and how the two are related. I trained with RCJ Machado before this (way before this) and it was definitely a bit more traditional, at least back then. Our school is pretty young, just founded in 2016, so not only have we relied on colored belts who had colored belts before joining the gym, and bringijng their own flavor,. but we've also had no one no one who started at the gym as a fresh white belt and been promoted to black. In fact, all the brown belts have had prior experience, and there have only been 2 black belts awarded, one from purple through to black and the other from brown to black.

It's pretty cool being able to have been formational in the culture of more than one gym now,.but I'm genuinely interested in other people's experiences, especially who have stepped into a place with a lot of tradition already. I sorta wonder what it would be like training at say, Romulo Barral's Gracie Barra gym. One of my friends and early mentees, who started as a fresh white belt and graduated college with a fresh blue belt, trains with Gabriel Arges (a world champion) but I haven't had the opportunity to go train with them in CA, yet..

I think every good competitor from the gyms Ive been to have vastly different styles from the head coaches. Some things will just work better for some people than others no matter how hard you try.
I think its the coaches/professors job to facilitate a students growth not try and emulate. You try your best
To show the best version of every technique but its really up to the student to develop his skillset.

some gyms will be known for having good leg lockers or berimbolo guys for instance but that would be more about the cultureof the gym.
Did the instructor let people do foot locks and guard pull? Its best not to limit your students but rather guide them and let things play out naturally.

when I arrived at my new gym, i found that i couldnt knee slice or berimbolo anyone because they had ptsd from dealing with a few guys wo were AMAZING at it. culture is everything for developing raw talent

 

[LA Guy]

I think every good competitor from the gyms Ive been to have vastly different styles from the head coaches. Some things will just work better for some people than others no matter how hard you try.
I think its the coaches/professors job to facilitate a students growth not try and emulate. You try your best
To show the best version of every technique but its really up to the student to develop his skillset.

some gyms will be known for having good leg lockers or berimbolo guys for instance but that would be more about the cultureof the gym.
Did the instructor let people do foot locks and guard pull? Its best not to limit your students but rather guide them and let things play out naturally.

when I arrived at my new gym, i found that i couldnt knee slice or berimbolo anyone because they had ptsd from dealing with a few guys wo were AMAZING at it. culture is everything for developing raw talent

lol footlocks. We allow heelhooks in the gi. So there's that. We do discourage te white belts from trying it, since not only do they spazz out a bit, but it can ake away from them from learning solid passing and guard retention techniques. I think that Tom DeBlass talked about his early lack of progress because of this. Even with colored belts, sometimes we've had to call it because it became a leg lock shootout, and with two stubborn guys, you are going to end up with double injuries sometimes, as I'm sure you know.

In our gym, I think that everyone is pretty aware of their grips since we had one guy who had wristilock set ups from all sorts positions,and also, to never have lazy feet on the hips while reguarding because for a while everyone was shooting for an Estima lock any time someone started to reguard or tried to spin under and left a foot dangling for a just a moment.

At my old MMA gym, everyone concentrated on frames, hiding your arms so that you could create just enough space to dig the underhook, and lockdowns in grappling because we had some monster wrestlers (including a few from early UFC days) who would 100% shallow up your knee and give you massive chest to chest pressure.

Where techniques come from are weird as well. I am 47, and not at all flexible except in my hips. Also, I broke my back in a freak accident in November 2019 (yeah, timing was great). So inversions are sorta out of the question for me. That said, because of my old MMA background, I had developed a "double lock down", before Eddie Bravo beat Royler Gracie and gave the thing a name It's like the lockdown, but you double wrap the ouside leg. It's like the lockdown on steroids. I've tried to teach it to a lot of people, but only a minority can do it, as it requires some weird knee flexibility. In any case, I taught it to this young white belt (now purple, I think) and the game that I had developed off of it, and apparently, he taught it to some guys at Gabriel Arges gym, and they liked it and expanded on it. I'm actually sorta excited to see what those guys have done with it. I figured out how to counter myself, or rather, my coached figured it out, and we've been working on it every since, but there is a much deeper pool of brown and black belts down there, and I'd like to see how my own, homegrown technique will be used to wreck me.

I still hate bolos.

 

[rnguy001]

^ I can't invert worth a damn either. (tight back and hamstrings among other things). just trying to be better than the day before...

 

[LA Guy]

^ I can't invert worth a damn either. (tight back and hamstrings among other things). just trying to be better than the day befor

I will say that I can invert better than I used to, and you can do a berimbolo/shoulder roll thing that Mikey Musemeci has legitimized by demonstrating it and calling it "the berimbolo that everyone can do." Thank you champ! That said. I usually force the back using things like DLR, or more commonly, off the gift wrap, or off a modified bread cutter or modified ezekiel choke using the opponent/training partner's own forearm as one of the choking arms.
I haven't trained without the gi in years now, so I'm not sure how applicable my game would be, but I have a feeling that I'd need to rework a lot of stuff and it would take me a good six months to really get it, seeing how grip dependent it's become.

Some people say that it's "less realistic" but I would submit that neither is "realistic" and that it's a much less likely scenario that I would end up in a death match with a naked man, given my life.

Also, please tell me that in your username @rnguy001 that the "rn" stands for rear naked.

 

[rnguy001]

RN - my name initials. Rear Naked would be much better.
weird : two things really missing from my game are back takes/attacks and guillotines. have to work on that.

I love the gift wrap position! I try to use it whenever I can. Often transition into a North/South Kimura position and work from there.

I will say that I can invert better than I used to, and you can do a berimbolo/shoulder roll thing that Mikey Musemeci has legitimized by demonstrating it and calling it "the berimbolo that everyone can do." Thank you champ! That said. I usually force the back using things like DLR, or more commonly, off the gift wrap, or off a modified bread cutter or modified ezekiel choke using the opponent/training partner's own forearm as one of the choking arms.
I haven't trained without the gi in years now, so I'm not sure how applicable my game would be, but I have a feeling that I'd need to rework a lot of stuff and it would take me a good six months to really get it, seeing how grip dependent it's become.

Some people say that it's "less realistic" but I would submit that neither is "realistic" and that it's a much less likely scenario that I would end up in a death match with a naked man, given my life.

Also, please tell me that in your username @rnguy001 that the "rn" stands for rear naked.

 

[LA Guy]

RN - my name initials. Rear Naked would be much better.
weird : two things really missing from my game are back takes/attacks and guillotines. have to work on that.

I love the gift wrap position! I try to use it whenever I can. Often transition into a North/South Kimura position and work from there.

I'm very often a kimura from north south kind of guy. I think that @admin can attest to that. That was especially true for me at blue and purple belt, but I am working on rounding out my game a lot. Guillotines are deceptively difficult and technical, They seem easy at white belt, but that's because everyone sorta sucks. But as everyone's defense and posture improves, the no arm guillotine, in particular, become hard to catch. you really can't do it from full guard, but have to sit out to properly chinstrap and get your lat over the opponent or training partner's shoulder and upper back properly. I've rarely seen it done successfully off the bump sweep, for example, Peopl are just too savvy to it.. The best guys like Josh hinger time it off a collar or arm drag. A front headlock. lke wrestlers do, using the bellow to force the head and chin in the body, is easier, but again, unless it's off a poor shot, it's hard to really get.

 

[LA Guy]

I was reviewing a lot of tape on modern no gi passing,from Andrew Wiltse, and it just occurred to me that yeah, I would need at least six months to relearn no gi. The difference when there are gi grips and when there are not, just make the game vastly different. So,.for example, a lot of his no gi passing starts by his baiting the delarivaand ankle grab. With the gi though, if I am on bottom, the first thing I try for is a sleeve grip or cross collar grip, feet on the hips to create puish pull, and arm or collar drag my way into DLR or DLX, or if they are really off balance, into a helicopter sweep. But without gi grips, handfighting is different, and you can't really collar tie a standing opponent when you are on your butt. I'm not even sure what concept I would use.

And the "unstoppable sweep" that I use a lot (it's not actually), but whatever) relies very much on your ability to get to a sleeve and collar grip. Yeah, maybe when I start retraining more regularly, I'll do a bit more no gi, actually commit to learning body lock and underhook no gi passes, and figure out wtf you do from the bottom without grips, etc...

 

[razorfrazer]

I was reviewing a lot of tape on modern no gi passing,from Andrew Wiltse, and it just occurred to me that yeah, I would need at least six months to relearn no gi. The difference when there are gi grips and when there are not, just make the game vastly different. So,.for example, a lot of his no gi passing starts by his baiting the delarivaand ankle grab. With the gi though, if I am on bottom, the first thing I try for is a sleeve grip or cross collar grip, feet on the hips to create puish pull, and arm or collar drag my way into DLR or DLX, or if they are really off balance, into a helicopter sweep. But without gi grips, handfighting is different, and you can't really collar tie a standing opponent when you are on your butt. I'm not even sure what concept I would use.

And the "unstoppable sweep" that I use a lot (it's not actually), but whatever) relies very much on your ability to get to a sleeve and collar grip. Yeah, maybe when I start retraining more regularly, I'll do a bit more no gi, actually commit to learning body lock and underhook no gi passes, and figure out wtf you do from the bottom without grips, etc...

NoGi passing is so different. I love Wilte's concepts. Its very hard to do outside passing. I have more luck attacking the back and feet from top position.

Here's a clip of a recent ish tournament final punishing a dude out of position with an inverted guard triangle setup.

 

[LA Guy]

NoGi passing is so different. I love Wilte's concepts. Its very hard to do outside passing. I have more luck attacking the back and feet from top position.

Here's a clip of a recent ish tournament final punishing a dude out of position with an inverted guard triangle setup.

Nice job. I swear that you are an incarnation of Justin, who was a purple belt back when I was a blue belt. Not sure if he trains anymore because of chronic knee issues, but the inverted triangle and triangle from guard or inverted guard was his go to, gi or no gi. He caught everyone in it, then taught everyone the counter. I mean, that's the way a gym gets better, right? You guys are about the same size. Just from that video, he is more wiry and muscular, but about the same.

I could not make 145 to save my life. I did some MMA matches at 145, but that was in my 20s, and I was really big for that size, but also, felt so depleted. No way I could weigh in same day. I mostly fought at 155. And now, I am 185 walking around. If I leaned out to under 10% BF, I would be 175 walking around, and could possibly cut down to 170 without the gi on.

It's possible that you could catch me, of course, but I think, just based on the number of times I've defended that hip up and my consciousnes of my posture and hip positions, that it would take more time then that. Like you said, you get PTSD from certain people in your gym being really good at specific things, and just becoming defensively very aware of them.

Same re attacking from the top in gi vs no gi. I have been practicing my leg pummelling some, but it's just a very differnt concept then in the gi, where there is so much more friction. Yeah, the very, very, few times I've trained recently in no gi. I try to snatch up a foot to either get a quick tap or step myself into inside sankaku, or I'll more or less dive into a leg drag situation to try to take the back. It's been prettty successful, but it's also been against blue belts, so it's hard to say if it would work against a purple or brown belt - someone closer to the same skill and experience level.

Also, lol at that "guard pull". 100% Rickson would beat your ass for that ****;.

 

[razorfrazer]

Nice job. I swear that you are an incarnation of Justin, who was a purple belt back when I was a blue belt. Not sure if he trains anymore because of chronic knee issues, but the inverted triangle and triangle from guard or inverted guard was his go to, gi or no gi. He caught everyone in it, then taught everyone the counter. I mean, that's the way a gym gets better, right? You guys are about the same size. Just from that video, he is more wiry and muscular, but about the same.

I could not make 145 to save my life. I did some MMA matches at 145, but that was in my 20s, and I was really big for that size, but also, felt so depleted. No way I could weigh in same day. I mostly fought at 155. And now, I am 185 walking around. If I leaned out to under 10% BF, I would be 175 walking around, and could possibly cut down to 170 without the gi on.

It's possible that you could catch me, of course, but I think, just based on the number of times I've defended that hip up and my consciousnes of my posture and hip positions, that it would take more time then that. Like you said, you get PTSD from certain people in your gym being really good at specific things, and just becoming defensively very aware of them.

Same re attacking from the top in gi vs no gi. I have been practicing my leg pummelling some, but it's just a very differnt concept then in the gi, where there is so much more friction. Yeah, the very, very, few times I've trained recently in no gi. I try to snatch up a foot to either get a quick tap or step myself into inside sankaku, or I'll more or less dive into a leg drag situation to try to take the back. It's been prettty successful, but it's also been against blue belts, so it's hard to say if it would work against a purple or brown belt - someone closer to the same skill and experience level.

Also, lol at that "guard pull". 100% Rickson would beat your ass for that ****;.

The guard pull was shameful. It was a tactics thing. I was up 2-0 when i pulled at that point so i was expecting him to take some more risks passing.

ive got a cjj match tomorrow vs a mma guy. We’ll see how that goes. 😅

 

[LA Guy]

The guard pull was shameful. It was a tactics thing. I was up 2-0 when i pulled at that point so i was expecting him to take some more risks passing.

ive got a cjj match tomorrow vs a mma guy. We’ll see how that goes. 😅

Ooof. Okay, gonna say this. I know a good black belt around here (used to be a MMA masters fighter down in FL) who has won som nationally televised CJJ titles. I... do not understand. Like, the rules are really strange, It's not staight up BJJ, but you also can't actually punch or kick either, Nor is it old school Vale Tudo. That said, as Bas Rutten showed, you can 100% KO a man with open handed strikes.

ime, MMA guys are often less mobile and have fewer weapons in their repetoire, since a lot of sports BJJ stuff is not that useful if you can get punched, but they are often tougher than straight up (non elite) competitors, just because strength and conditioning are so much more emphasized in MMA. And they are tough, since in MMA gyms, there are often basically no gentle rolls, Every roll is like you are fighting in the finals of mundials or ADCC. The light stuff is actually usually in striking sparring, since you really don't want that type of wear and tear on your body between fights. Oh, and maybe watch out for some out of position subs. A lot of MMA guys have a catch as catch can mentality. There is a former UFC guy in our gym, a little smaller but a lot younger and faster, and the first time we rolled, he jumped on a a kimura as I was passing. My arm wasn't even that unprotected, and most BJJ gus would have avoided it, because he basically gave up his back to secure it. And he committed to it 100% while a pure bjj guy might have just used ot to force soemthing else or a retraction.

Good luck. Don't get slapped unconscious.

 

[razorfrazer]

Heres how my match went! @LA Guy

 

[LA Guy]

Heres how my match went! @LA Guy

lol. Nice. Did this fool not watch any footage of you at all? Why the hell would try that on someone who throws up triangles so often? Or even stand that way, tall but with the bent bank and head down. I honestly try to never disparage anyone's matches. since everyone can be caught, and there will always be an L waiting for you, but if I were that guys coach. I would pretty much have told him to do the opposite of what he did.

The difference between an L and a W I think is about 30% gameplan and tactics, 60% technique, size, strength, athletic ability and about 10% of just sheer luck. I guess that he just straight up threw that first 30% out the window. You only do that if you are just such a superior player/fighter that you can basicall neutralize any threat, at which point, it's not really even a contest at all.

Anyway, nice job. Fast and clean. Congratulations.

 

[razorfrazer]

lol. Nice. Did this fool not watch any footage of you at all? Why the hell would try that on someone who throws up triangles so often? Or even stand that way, tall but with the bent bank and head down. I honestly try to never disparage anyone's matches. since everyone can be caught, and there will always be an L waiting for you, but if I were that guys coach. I would pretty mjuch told him to do the opposite of what he did.

Te difference between an L and a W I think is about 30% gameplan and tactics, 60% technique, size, strength, athletic ability and about 10% of just sheer luck. I guess that he just straight up threw that first 30% out the window. You only do that if you are just such a superior player/fighter that you can basicall neutralize any threat, at which point, it's not really even a contest at all.

Anyway, nice job. Fast and clean. Congratulations.

agree with it all. I wanted him to
Shoot so I could take his head off with guillotine / dragon sleeper. He shot so low and yeah i can finish a triangle from just about anywhere. It was done as soon as I locked it up. He had a whole world of heel hooks and leg transitions waiting for him he woulsnt of gotten far. Most black belts cant hang with my level of leg attacks so 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️. Super cool kid. I’m gunna work with him in grappling to get ready for MMA.