The Oxford-Shoe-Worn-Casually Appreciation Thread

[smittycl]

I was a kid in the 70s. Corduroy and turtlenecks got tiresome.

 

[Sir Jack II]

I was a kid in the 70s. Corduroy and turtlenecks got tiresome.

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[emptym]

I just can't get into turtlenecks and would have phrased it this way: "Totally agree that ______ and turtleneck is not a good combination."

@Stylewords is like that with loafers, so he could say "Totally agree that loafers and ______ is not a good combination."

I love cowboy boots; I own a few pair of them. I have seen them worn with suits. There are places they are acceptable with suits. I've never seen cowboy boots look good with suits. I imagine it's more rare than looking good while wearing oxfords casually.

I grew up in the Southwest and worked for one of our Senators, partly in at home and partly in DC. You'd see a good number of politicians in DC wearing cowboy boots. That was the mid 90s, and I've heard they're even more common now since dress codes have relaxed and politicians try harder to appear one of the people.

Well, I wanted to believe that this was true. Or, I gave it every chance to be true. But then I started looking around to see if the rule was in widespread use today, and the 'data' just simply does not support the hypothesis. I mean, it just doesn't, and I don't know what else to say. Plenty of really good dressers here on this forum don't follow it. I can't seem to find any on IG that do. (I thought for sure Mark Cho was going to be one, but then someone posted a disqualifying pic in one of these threads, popping that balloon.) And it doesn't comport with what I've seen with my own eyes, out in the wild.

So, we've got Peter...Vox...Derek, who only wears oxfords in a narrow context at any rate...and who? A handful of other guys who post in this thread? I mean, we're getting pretty far from consensus if you ask me. If anything, it seems to tend the other way.

I'm going to chalk it up with button-down collars and double-breasted jackets, which I also once believed was incoherent and not to be worn, but which seems unremarkable today.

Well, it depends on how you define "rule." It's not a law in the sense of being universal, necessary, or absolute. Finding one person who's worn an oxford would shatter a rule conceived like that. But no one said it was a law like that. As people have mentioned, it's more of a general principal or thumb rule. In such cases, one would find some or even many exceptions to it. I'll bet that if you catalogued Mark Cho's (or well dressed people recently posted) pictures, the vast majority of them would follow, "Oxfords pair best with suits." In other words, his practice would affirm the rule. And I'll bet if we actually asked him (which I can if you'd like), he'd agree that it's a good rule in the sense of a general principal. Still, I'm sure he's happy to push the bounds, partly because that's his profession, as UC wrote re gdl203. The public poll in the other thread even showed that over half of respondants thought it was not ideal to wear oxfords with chinos.

So again, it's not "DWW rule." But is it still applicable today?

I agree with you that it is known and observed less and less. And I don't think DWW would disagree with that. @Mirage- accuses DWW of attacking strawmen, which I'm guessing means green/blue oxfords or wearing oxfords with chinos, etc. But those aren't strawmen. It's a fairly common. As Vox observed long ago, most guys nowadays aren't taught classic (thumb) rules/principles of style by their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, or teachers. They read about them on blogs. And many blogs promote a broad use of oxfords. Here's an example, which echos things @JFWR and others have written:

Oxfords can also work for a variety of smart casual events, such as lunches, parties, and more. To pull off such a look with Oxfords, start by finding the perfect pair of pants. As Oxfords are quite formal, they require a somewhat casual pair of pants to balance their style. In particular, chinos or dressy jeans will work well to achieve the desired aesthetic.

It's from this blog, which is the top link in a google search for "oxfords with chinos." It's full of the kind of outfits @Mirage- may think are strawmen, but are actually fairly common and echo looks that members such as @Nobilis Animus and @VegasRebel have posted as exemplary.

 

[JFWR]

@Stylewords is like that with loafers, so he could say "Totally agree that loafers and ______ is not a good combination."

I grew up in the Southwest and worked for one of our Senators, partly at home and partly in DC. You'd see a good number of politicians in DC wearing cowboy boots. That was the mid 90s, and I've heard they're even more common now than then siince dress codes have relaxed and politicians try harder to appear one of the people.

Well, it depends on how you define "rule." It's not a law in the sense of being universal, necessary, or absolute. Finding one person who's worn an oxford would shatter a rule conceived like that. But no one said it was a law like that. As people have mentioned, it's more of a general principal or thumb rule. In such cases, one would find some or even many exceptions to it. I'll bet that if you catalogued Mark Cho's (or well dressed people recently posted) pictures, the vast majority of them would follow, "Oxfords pair best with suits." In other words, his practice would affirm the rule. And I'll bet if we actually asked him (which I can if you'd like), he'd agree that it's a good rule in the sense of a general principal. Still, I'm sure he's happy to push the bounds, partly because that's his profession, as UC wrote re gdl203. The public poll in the other thread even showed that over half of respondants thought it was not ideal to wear oxfords with chinos.

So again, it's not "DWW rule." But is it still applicable today?

I agree with you that it is known and observed less and less. And I don't think DWW would disagree with that. @Mirage- accuses DWW of attacking strawmen, which I'm guessing means green/blue oxfords or wearing oxfords with chinos, etc. But that those a strawman. It's a fairly common. As Vox observed long ago, most guys nowadays aren't taught classic (thumb) rules/principles of style by their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, or teachers. They read about them on blogs. And many blogs promote a broad use of oxfords. Here's an example, which echos things @JFWR and others have written:

Oxfords can also work for a variety of smart casual events, such as lunches, parties, and more. To pull off such a look with Oxfords, start by finding the perfect pair of pants. As Oxfords are quite formal, they require a somewhat casual pair of pants to balance their style. In particular, chinos or dressy jeans will work well to achieve the desired aesthetic.

It's from this blog, which is the top link in a google search for "oxfords with chinos." It's full of the kind of outfits @Mirage- may think are strawmen, but are actually fairly common and echo looks that members such as @Nobilis Animus and @VegasRebel have posted as exemplary.

Thoughtful post, emptym. Let me make one point, though.

I don't think smooth leather oxfords go with jeans. I said maybe suede. As for chinos, they need to be nice, dressy chinos.

In other words, it's the exact opposite fashion advice. I'm suggesting nice shoes should be paired with nice pants, not to offset the formal with the casual.

For instance, I would totally say black cap toes would look bad with jeans.

 

[JohnMRobie]

@Stylewords is like that with loafers, so he could say "Totally agree that loafers and ______ is not a good combination."

I grew up in NV and worked for one of our Senators, partly in NV and partly in DC. You'd see a good number of politicians in DC wearing cowboy boots. That was the mid 90s, and I've heard they're even more common now than then siince dress codes have relaxed and politicians try harder to appear one of the people.

Well, it depends on how you define "rule." It's not a law in the sense of being universal, necessary, or absolute. Finding one person who's worn an oxford would shatter a rule conceived like that. But no one said it was a law like that. As people have mentioned, it's more of a general principal or thumb rule. In such cases, one would find some or even many exceptions to it. I'll bet that if you catalogued Mark Cho's (or well dressed people recently posted) pictures, the vast majority of them would follow, "Oxfords pair best with suits." In other words, his practice would affirm the rule. And I'll bet if we actually asked him (which I can if you'd like), he'd agree that it's a good rule in the sense of a general principal. Still, I'm sure he's happy to push the bounds, partly because that's his profession, as UC wrote re gdl203. The public poll in the other thread even showed that over half of respondants thought it was not ideal to wear oxfords with chinos.

So again, it's not "DWW rule." But is it still applicable today?

I agree with you that it is known and observed less and less. And I don't think DWW would disagree with that. @Mirage- accuses DWW of attacking strawmen, which I'm guessing means green/blue oxfords or wearing oxfords with chinos, etc. But that those a strawman. It's a fairly common. As Vox observed long ago, most guys nowadays aren't taught classic (thumb) rules/principles of style by their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, or teachers. They read about them on blogs. And many blogs promote a broad use of oxfords. Here's an example, which echos things @JFWR and others have written:

Oxfords can also work for a variety of smart casual events, such as lunches, parties, and more. To pull off such a look with Oxfords, start by finding the perfect pair of pants. As Oxfords are quite formal, they require a somewhat casual pair of pants to balance their style. In particular, chinos or dressy jeans will work well to achieve the desired aesthetic.

It's from this blog, which is the top link in a google search for "oxfords with chinos." It's full of the kind of outfits @Mirage- may think are strawmen, but are actually fairly common and echo looks that members such as @Nobilis Animus and @VegasRebel have posted as exemplary.

If ever a blog post linked warranted a warning. Goddamn. My eyes.

 

[ValidusLA]

If ever a blog post linked warranted a warning. Goddamn. My eyes.
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Seriously, Jesus.

That blog, and frankly much of the taste in this thread, seems like people who heard Colin Firth say "Oxfords not brogues" in Kingsmen, thought they immediatly knew a lot about style, and proceeded to go off to the races with the worst fits they could find.

 

[ValidusLA]

I don't think smooth leather oxfords go with jeans. I said maybe suede.

Anyone wearing any oxfords with jeans is like someone who skis in jeans.

Fundamental lack of understanding.

 

[JFWR]

Anyone wearing any oxfords with jeans is like someone who skis in jeans.

Fundamental lack of understanding.

I don't understand that thinking. Suede oxfords bear none of the hallmarks of formality. I am not even saying -definitely-, but anything suede is sufficiently casual that it just doesn't strike me as inherently discordant with jeans.

 

[dieworkwear]

I don't understand that thinking. Suede oxfords bear none of the hallmarks of formality. I am not even saying -definitely-, but anything suede is sufficiently casual that it just doesn't strike me as inherently discordant with jeans.

People accuse me of setting up strawmen, but this forum is full of insane views.

 

[Stylewords]

There seems to be a confusion here about rule / rule of thumb. If someone says "oxfords best with suits", then that may be a useful basic guideline for people who are absolute beginners. But it's not a rule; it's simply accepting that oxfords fall towards the formal end of the spectrum as do suits, so you won't go wrong. But it's not a rule in any sense. A formal trousers + sportcoats combination is perfectly fine/acceptable/correct with oxfords (historically, aesthetically, normatively etc.). The problem is some (including DWW) say, when they see that combination: "oh but they can get away with it", "they can break the rules because they look good", "when you know the rules, you can break them". Let's be clear - there is no rule against oxfords with a formal odd trouser/jacket combination.

 

[ValidusLA]

I don't understand that thinking. Suede oxfords bear none of the hallmarks of formality. I am not even saying -definitely-, but anything suede is sufficiently casual that it just doesn't strike me as inherently discordant with jeans.

If you can't see that suede oxfords look bad with jeans, I doubt anyone will be able to explain it to you.

Frankly the fact this belief is even on the table makes the rest of this conversation even more of a clown car than it already was.

 

[DoubleDouble]

Can't believe this thread is still going.

Haven't seen it discussed, but the oxford "worn casually" works very well on artists:

Would another shoe possibly be better here? Yeah, sure. A derby? I don't think so.

 

[thatboyo]

Don’t think those pics of Tony looks good at all.

 

[emptym]

^Oh, wait. Were you serious (@DoubleDouble)?

I was a kid in the 70s. Corduroy and turtlenecks got tiresome.
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Great pics. I was a kid then too, but I don't think I ever abandoned them. My corduroy OP shorts and Grapevines pants from the 70s were some of my favorite clothing items ever. @Parker shares that, iirc.

Thoughtful post, emptym. Let me make one point, though.

I don't think smooth leather oxfords go with jeans. I said maybe suede. As for chinos, they need to be nice, dressy chinos.

In other words, it's the exact opposite fashion advice. I'm suggesting nice shoes should be paired with nice pants, not to offset the formal with the casual.

For instance, I would totally say black cap toes would look bad with jeans.

Well, I'm pretty sure you mentioned in a few posts how you try to "balance" the formality of the items you're wearing. And you've posted at least one pic of yourself wearing smooth leather oxfords with baggy, uncreased chinos. But I do remember you saying black cap toes would be bad with jeans.

I don't understand that thinking. Suede oxfords bear none of the hallmarks of formality other than being oxfords...

Fixed.

...Let's be clear - I personally had not heard till recently a rule against oxfords with a formal odd trouser/jacket combination.

Fixed.

 

[Mirage-]

[@Mirage-[/USER] may think are strawmen, but are actually fairly common and echo looks that members such as @Nobilis Animus and @VegasRebel have posted as exemplary.

Those are strawmen not in the sense they don't happen, as we all know they do, but in the sense that he has spent the entire thread deriving a very general and precise prescriptive rule from the worst excesses of its opposition, implying that not following his rule invariably leads to that (slippery slope argument), and whenever he is challenged, including by people and arguments that are not those, he still answers by attacking those same fringe looks and arguments instead of the one actually proposed (strawmen). And/or explains away possible evidence of the contrary as exceptions (which btw are alternately defined as being "less bad", "less offensive", or "ofc I stated that as exception from the start" seemingly depending on how much support he thinks he has at the moment).
This is a stance that is solely aimed at winning an argument at all costs, rather than actually allowing productive discussion to be had at all.