Sole Welting

[DWFII]



I think when comparing an ill-fitting hand-welted shoe to a bespoke-fit Goodyear-welted shoe, fit wins, but the line becomes blurred when you compare something that fits well, or even very well, but isn't bespoke, against a bespoke-fit Goodyear-welted shoe. At that point it comes down to your definition of comfort. 

Where would you find such a logical absurdity? It's almost a contradiction in terms. The physical manifestation of oxymoron.

I don't know of many...if any...makers who don't, by default, handwelt a bespoke shoe even if, maybe especially if, they are more commonly known for their GY shoes.

Which tells you something, right there, about the manufacturers own acknowledged perceptions regarding what is quality and what is something well short.

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[misterjuiceman]

Where would you find such a logical absurdity? I don't know of many...if any...makers who don't, by default ,handwelt a bespoke shoe even if, maybe especially if, they are more commonly known for their GY shoes. Which tells you something about the manufacturers own perceptions regarding what is quality and what is something well short.

I don't think you would ever find it. I've never heard of anyone doing it. It was just a hypothetical.

Quote:
I wonder if the foam rubber retains its shape or molds somewhat to the wearer as with cork. I suppose that would be a very distant second place importance when compared to the molding of the insole to the foot. I have no experience with it in non-sneaker shoes, though, so it's intriguing. Which of the big RTW makers are using it?

 

[DWFII]



I'm curious about this foam rubber bottom fill. Are there benefits of using "hot corking" to foam rubber? Is there a foam rubber matrix that can be topped off and the surplus removed with the ease of hot cork? Or alternatively is there a liquid foam rubber that can be squirted in, then the extra shaved off?

Wouldn't that last longer than cork? It would potentially be easier to remove too if it does not break apart when removed during resoling?

Benefits of cork:

Cheap...or it used to be.
Easy to apply.
Will not absorb or hold moisture
Will create a temporary footbed.​

Downsides of cork:

Getting more expensive as cork source become threatened.
Fugitive.
​

Benefits of foam:

Cheap.
Will not, and doesn't need to form a footbed.
Available​

Drawbacks of foam.

Absorbs and holds water against the insole.
Has to be clicked to size and is often not precise.
Will eventually deteriorate(but not before recrafting...or 40 years whichever comes first)​

 

[RogerP]

I think when comparing an ill-fitting hand-welted shoe to a bespoke-fit Goodyear-welted shoe, fit wins, but the line becomes blurred when you compare something that fits well, or even very well, but isn't bespoke, against a bespoke-fit Goodyear-welted shoe. At that point it comes down to your definition of comfort.

I appreciate your thoughts. Ill-fitting was never on the table in my example - no ill-fitting shoe is ever going to be comfortable.

Put it this way - would you not expect a bespoke hand welted shoe to be more comfortable than even a well-fitting RTW hand-welted shoe?

Isn't the factor that makes it more comfortable one of fit: i.e. - it is crafted on a last specifically designed to fit that individual's particular feet, as opposed to a generic last that merely comes close to the ideal for that wearer?

 

[misterjuiceman]

I appreciate your thoughts. Ill-fitting was never on the table in my example - no ill-fitting shoe is ever going to be comfortable.

Put it this way - would you not expect a bespoke hand welted shoe to be more comfortable than even a well-fitting RTW hand-welted shoe?

Isn't the factor that makes it more comfortable one of fit: i.e. - it is crafted on a last specifically designed to fit that individual's particular feet, as opposed to a generic last that merely comes close to the ideal for that wearer?

I should have said "decent, but not great fit" instead of "ill-fitting."

I agree with you that a bespoke hand-welted shoe should be expected to be more comfortable than even a well-fitting RTW hand-welted shoe.

My post was just intended to posit that the other factors involved in hand-welting (apart from the welt itself) also play a role in comfort.

 

[RogerP]

I should have said "decent, but not great fit" instead of "ill-fitting."

I agree with you that a bespoke hand-welted shoe should be expected to be more comfortable than even a well-fitting RTW hand-welted shoe.

My post was just intended to posit that the other factors involved in hand-welting (apart from the welt itself) also play a role in comfort.

Fair enough my man.

 

[DWFII]



I should have said "decent, but not great fit" instead of "ill-fitting."

I agree with you that a bespoke hand-welted shoe should be expected to be more comfortable than even a well-fitting RTW hand-welted shoe. 

My post was just intended to posit that the other factors involved in hand-welting (apart from the welt itself) also play a role in comfort.

Why would anyone think that?

How many times have I seen or heard people who don't really have any basis to comment one way or the other say that that such and such maker's lasts are wide or have high insteps or fit better than another model?

Do the lasts play an important part in the way a person perceives fit, or don't they?

How many bespoke makers start with a chunk of quarter-sawn hornbeam and carve the lasts from scratch? Whether they do or don't, what effect does the bottom radius have on the perception of fit?

Bespoke doesn't guarantee a fit...you'll forgive me if I observe that it is silly to even suggest such a thing. The bespoke maker offers you choices. Personalization. Even to the extent of measuring, and then "interpreting" the measurements of your foot into an individualized last.

But in the end it's still interpretation. How could trying to fit one of the most architecturally complex structures in nature, both at rest and in motion--where all the critical elements shift and change--not be a matter of interpretation?

In the end, it's also about communication as well as the subjective interpretations of the customer. If you don't communicate with the maker...at the time of the commission as well as during the subsequent fittings...your likelihood of satisfaction goes down precipitously.

So many factors involved...are you working with a high end, experienced, dedicated bespoke maker or having a pair of bespoke shoes made by a maker whose real forte is RTW GY welted shoes?

For all the uncertainties of bespoke fittings, someone...some actual human being...is still, when all is said and done, trying their utmost of accommodate you and your idiosyncrasies.

For all its uncertainties, bespoke is, at least, not impersonal. It is not a machine making a pair of shoes for a dumbed down statistical average. Nor is it, as is the norm with manufactured shoes, an operation that fundamentally abjures any and all responsibility for either the fit or the quality.

"Any bespoke maker who says that he has never had a misfit, is either lying or needs a better definition of fit."

Good bespoke makers study feet and fit. They learn. Some bespoke makers are going to excel at fitting the foot, some not so much.

RTW makers study the marketplace.

There's no guarantee that a bespoke maker can fit your foot to your satisfaction. It's a red herring and a false dichotomy. But if a person choses a bespoke maker with the same rigour as some (present company excepted) bring to thinking about the issues in this thread, a poor fit is almost inevitable.

 

[misterjuiceman]

Expectation and reality do not necessarily align. I agree with your post.

 

[TKDKid]



Where would you find such a logical absurdity? It's almost a contradiction in terms. The physical manifestation of oxymoron.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/183706/lasts-and-bespoke-shoe-makers/15#post_3292862

- basically an Alfred Sargent MTO with a custom last.

I remember reading that Trickers' bespoke is the same, which is why it's so much cheaper than John Lobb St James et al.

Bespoke Blake-stitched shoes also exist:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/5926/recent-commissions-petrocchi-boots-from-rome

 

[DWFII]



http://www.styleforum.net/t/183706/lasts-and-bespoke-shoe-makers/15#post_3292862

- basically an Alfred Sargent MTO with a custom last.

I remember reading that Trickers' bespoke is the same, which is why it's so much cheaper than John Lobb St James et al.

I understand. I even know of one primarily bespoke maker who, for the less quality conscious and less sophisticated of palate, will gem and hand stitch the inseam.

In either case, it's still a logical absurdity.

BTW, I don't see any photos of a bespoke shoe with a GY inseam at the link you provided...only a couple of pics of lasts.

??!!

--

 

[RogerP]

http://www.styleforum.net/t/183706/lasts-and-bespoke-shoe-makers/15#post_3292862

- basically an Alfred Sargent MTO with a custom last.

I remember reading that Trickers' bespoke is the same, which is why it's so much cheaper than John Lobb St James et al.

Bespoke Blake-stitched shoes also exist:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/5926/recent-commissions-petrocchi-boots-from-rome

Interesting - I did not know that such existed.

Speaking of false dichotomies - suggesting that hand-welting is the demarcation line between that which is quality and that which is not, sure is a doosy!

 

[jerrybrowne]



Bespoke doesn't guarantee a fit

Very true. Especially when you first start working with a firm. Getting the last right takes time and sometimes several iterations. Even then, some designs won't work right with your last and will require adjustments.

 

[TKDKid]



I understand. I even know of one primarily bespoke maker who, for the less quality conscious and less sophisticated of palate, will gem and hand stitch the inseam.

In either case, it's still a logical absurdity.

Even more so than bespoke shoes that don't fit...?

BTW, I don't see any photos of a bespoke shoe with a GY inseam at the link you provided...only a couple of pics of lasts.

Alfred Sargent only do Goodyear-welted shoes. I think the shoes never got made in the end because Slewfoot not being based in the UK meant he wasn't able to do fittings easily:

True, but I tried to do that and it didn't really work out. It's not a magic formula like we hope it may be. You need to do a few fittings with AS and Springline together to make sure it can be what it should so that means multiple trips to England. I get the impression that if you don't do fittings it's essentially like ordering a jacket from Chan on their tour without any fittings. It works well for some people, but for others the first jacket doesn't fit as well as future ones or as good as it would have with fittings.

 

[DWFII]



Even more so than bespoke shoes that don't fit...?

Sorry but that's just confusing the issue...fit doesn't have anything to do with whether a shoe is GY or HW.

It's another red herring invented and marketed by people (present company excepted) who have a hard time with logic and objectivity...and are wont to conflate and confuse and obfuscate.

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[dbhdnhdbh]

On sole welting specifically. I remember DWF saying that the current "traditional" method, hand sewing the welt to the insole and then welt to the outsole, came to be around 1500. He did not elaborate on where, or by whom. I am hoping he, or others, can fill in the rest of the story. How were soles attached before that? Did one person invent this method? Did emerge from one workshop or regional guild? Or did the method simply appear in the historical record, with little or no documentation of where it came from?

As a guy who is never going to spring for a pair of bespoke shoes, not really my problem, but I find DWF's comments about fit disturbing. Like others, I would have assumed that this was the one thing that would be a given with bespoke. If not, then for someone who cares about fit, it would seem safer to keep trying RTW until you find something that works. Then you buy the specific shoes that fit, no mysteries. The alternative would appear to be to find a highy regarded bespoke maker, and accept that you may not get a great fit until you had purchased several pair from the same cordwainer and together figured out just what to do to acheive this goal. I suppose someone who had the time and money to invest in several trial pairs might consider this just part of the process, but how many people have that patience, and are willing to spend that kind of money?