Small children.

[Fabienne]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Yes, I often have the same experience. I think that many people are so self-centered in their thinking that they cannot understand that I define the appropriate limits of my daughter's behavior by the values I want her to learn and embody rather than by the tolerance of others.

Exactly. We have the grandparents on the same page, but there's not much you can do about strangers except tell them after the fact that no, you would rather your child understood the importance of XYZ.

 

[Fabienne]

Originally Posted by Stazy

I disagree. Learning how to act in more refined settings is an important part of any child's development. As such, my parents routinely brought me and my siblings to fine dining establishments during our younger years.

My parents have told stories of how other restaurant patrons were entirely disgusted to see 4 young kids seated near them, only to have them complement our behaviour at the conclusion of our meal. We were well behaved because 1) we did not want to face the wrath of are parents and 2) an uneventful meal almost guaranteed us dessert.

It is a shame most kids cannot sit through a nice meal, but I think the fault lies more with the parents than with the poorly behaved child.

In total agreement.

 

[Isaac Mickle]

If you are living the life of bachelor ease, and you have no sympathy for your brother who struggles to get himself a god-damn coffee while managing small children who are out of temper, then you are one selfish bastard.

You might as well be rich and hate on the poor for not having money.

You might as well be thin and hate on the fat for being overweight.

People are unspeakably rude to parents with small children, and they are unspeakably rude to small children.

As for the whole, "You should not take your kids out in public if they are not going to behave," I would say two things:

(1) No children behave to the standard you desire 100% of the time. They do 90% of the time, and when they do, YOU IGNORE THEM. You don't see them. They are invisible to you.

(2) It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep your children in the house 24/7.

So you might as well complain about the dad who takes his down's syndrome kid out in public, or the mom who wheels her crippled daughter to the baseball game.

"I can't see the field because that BLUBBERING CRIPPLE is sitting next to me."

Seriously, as a parent, that's what you guys sound like to me.

I'm just as selfish as the rest of you. I want to go places and run errands quickly and wear clothing that does not have slobber or snot on the shoulder and on the pant leg. I want to eat in a fine restaurant with my wife again. I'm selfish--that's why you make me angry with these teenage complaints about having to see children being children in public.

 

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by Isaac Mickle

If you are living the life of bachelor ease, and you have no sympathy for your brother who struggles to get himself a god-damn coffee while managing small children who are out of temper, then you are one selfish bastard. You might as well be rich and hate on the poor for not having money. You might as well be thin and hate on the fat for being overweight. People are unspeakably rude to parents with small children, and they are unspeakably rude to small children. As for the whole, "You should not take your kids out in public if they are not going to behave," I would say two things: (1) No children behave to the standard you desire 100% of the time. They do 90% of the time, and when they do, YOU IGNORE THEM. You don't see them. They are invisible to you. (2) It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep your children in the house 24/7. So you might as well complain about the dad who takes his down's syndrome kid out in public, or the mom who wheels her crippled daughter to the baseball game. "I can't see the field because that BLUBBERING CRIPPLE is sitting next to me." Seriously, as a parent, that's what you guys sound like to me. I'm just as selfish as the rest of you. I want to go places and run errands quickly and wear clothing that does not have slobber or snot on the shoulder and on the pant leg. I want to eat in a fine restaurant with my wife again. I'm selfish--that's why you make me angry with these teenage complaints about having to see children being children in public.
It's thoroughly unreasonable to equate frustration with parents who tolerate, condone and excuse their childrens' bad behavior with begrudging a handicapped child the simple pleasure of a ball game.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Isaac Mickle

If you are living the life of bachelor ease, and you have no sympathy for your brother who struggles to get himself a god-damn coffee while managing small children who are out of temper, then you are one selfish bastard.

You might as well be rich and hate on the poor for not having money.

You might as well be thin and hate on the fat for being overweight.

People are unspeakably rude to parents with small children, and they are unspeakably rude to small children.

As for the whole, "You should not take your kids out in public if they are not going to behave," I would say two things:

(1) No children behave to the standard you desire 100% of the time. They do 90% of the time, and when they do, YOU IGNORE THEM. You don't see them. They are invisible to you.

(2) It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep your children in the house 24/7.

So you might as well complain about the dad who takes his down's syndrome kid out in public, or the mom who wheels her crippled daughter to the baseball game.

"I can't see the field because that BLUBBERING CRIPPLE is sitting next to me."

Seriously, as a parent, that's what you guys sound like to me.

I'm just as selfish as the rest of you. I want to go places and run errands quickly and wear clothing that does not have slobber or snot on the shoulder and on the pant leg. I want to eat in a fine restaurant with my wife again. I'm selfish--that's why you make me angry with these teenage complaints about having to see children being children in public.

I think context has a lot to do with it. I think one should only take children to an upscale restaurant if the children are capable of behaving appropriately. On the other hand, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who get pissy because children are moderately rambunctious in, say, a Starbucks, where people feel free to engage in loud conversation, move tables and chairs around, where the servers are loudly calling out the names of patrons whose drinks are ready, etc.

 

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by Fabienne

In total agreement.
+1. Also, I see absolutely NO reason a child shouldn't be expected to conduct themselves with the same level of decorum at McDonald's as they are expected to observe at Cipriani.

 

[texas_jack]

Annoyance at poorly behaved kids is one thing and annoyance at kids in general is another. I think many people just don't like kids period and I think this is a very unhealthy situation for our future. See my above post.

P.S. I don't have kids.

 

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

On the other hand, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who get pissy because children are moderately rambunctious in, say, a Starbucks, where people feel free to engage in loud conversation, move tables and chairs around, where the servers are loudly calling out the names of patrons whose drinks are ready, etc.

Stay outta my Starbucks with da brats, Lawyerdood! Just kidding -- I never patronize that hellhole...

 

[JBZ]

Originally Posted by Fabienne

What's interesting to me in the US is that if I am in the middle of telling my son he should or shouldn't do something, people will often say "Oh, that's OK."

I actually caught myself doing this with a friend of mine. He and his children were visiting my home, and his children were doing something (I can't remember what) that I truly didn't find objectionable, but he did. He told them to stop, at which point I said to him, "Oh, that's okay. Don't worry about it." I think I said it to make him feel like his children weren't a problem and that he shouldn't worry. However, I quickly realized that this was probably a behavior he was trying to eliminate. I then said to him something like, "sorry, didn't mean to step onto your parenting ground."

As for this thread, when you see habitually poorly behaved children in public, blame the parents, not the kids. Of course, no child is going to be a perfect angel at all times, but that's to be expected. As was pointed out above, I've run into just as many rude and self-centered adults in public places as I have children. At least children have an excuse.

 

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by texas_jack

Annoyance at poorly behaved kids is one thing and annoyance at kids in general is another. I think many people just don't like kids period and I think this is a very unhealthy situation for our future.
+1

Thank Heaven for little girls... for little girls get bigger every day; Thank Heaven for little girls... they grow up in the most delightful way. Those little eyes, so helpless and appealing, one day will flash and send you crashing through the ceiling. Thank Heaven for little girls Thank Heaven for them all, no matter where, no matter who -- Without them what would little boys do? -- Alan Jay Lerner

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Quirk

+1.
Also, I see absolutely NO reason a child shouldn't be expected to conduct themselves with the same level of decorum at McDonald's as they are expected to observe at Cipriani.

Because it's a different environment. The social environment and expectations are different at McDonald's, than at Cipriani, than at the ballpark.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Quirk

Stay outta my Starbucks with da brats, Lawyerdood!


Just kidding -- I never patronize that hellhole...

LOL, me either, actually. For us it's more often Peet's, but I was trying to go with a more generally familiar example.

 

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

The social environment and expectations are different at McDonald's, than at Cipriani, than at the ballpark.
Hmm, well maybe slightly, but things like standing on chairs, yelling, jumping around as if it's a playground, throwing food, playing on the floor with your toy cars... these things are not acceptable in any kind of restaurant. IMO. Nor do I think parents should tolerate these behaviors at dinner time in their own home.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by Fabienne

What's interesting to me in the US is that if I am in the middle of telling my son he should or shouldn't do something, people will often say "Oh, that's OK."

yeah, I hate that. I end up saying "this has nothing to do with your feelings on the matter, I am teaching my son how I expect him to act"

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Quirk

Hmm, well maybe slightly, but things like standing on chairs, yelling, jumping around as if it's a playground, throwing food, playing on the floor with your toy cars... these things are not acceptable in any kind of restaurant. IMO. Nor do I think parents should tolerate these behaviors at dinner time in their own home.

McDonalds includes toys in children's meals, and many McDonald's locations incorporate actual playground equipment adjacent to or even flowing into the play [edit: I meant "eating"] area. A savvy patron would allow these facts to shape his expectations. Then again, we don't eat at McDonald's except during road trips, so maybe the atmosphere is more refined than I remember.