semi-bespoke suit?

[dukeaw]

All,

A local bespoke tailor (his son) offers 'custom' suits. This bespoke tailor is highly regarded and based in CT and Westchester. The custom suits is a line of business that his son operates. According to the son he has a software based pattern maker that he uses to adjust measurement on.

According to his son, the senior tailor will be there alongside him for measurements. I will wear an existing suit of mine that fits well then provide feedback to them, as well as hear their feedback. They will then alter their pattern to me. After 2-3 weeks they will have me back for a basted fitting. We will make alterations and then in 2-3 weeks I will come back to pick up the finished product.

Their bespoke service has 2-3 fittings between initial measurement and finished product but is significantly more expensive. This service does not use pattern software, but the tailor will cut the pattern for the customer.

Now, my question is how to define this service? I have used a mtm service before. But this seems much more in depth than a mtm where they send pattern variations to an overseas factory. He calls this custom suiting, but it sounds like its a semi-bespoke. Are these the same thing?

The tailor usually charges $1200 for base Holland and Sherry fabric but if I order 2 suits he will do a deal at $1000 a suit. I believe this to be an exception deal and am tempted to do two suits to take advantage of this offer. I am also in the market for 2 sport coats. Their entry price at $700 for Holland and Sherry, which I may get a deal on if I do it all in the same order.

I've inspected the quality of the top level bespoke suits he has in his studio and they are very high quality with significant hand work.

Is this a bad idea to buy two suits (and possibly 2 sport coats) without any foundation to work on with him even if I am already educated to how I expect my suits to fit? Or should I be fine since we have a basted fitting to work out the details. My body is not overly difficult, and my existing suits fit acceptably with certain challenges (~18 inch shoulders, 42 chest, 33 waist, with a 40+ inch seat, and 24+ inch thighs).

Based on community experiences am I making a mistake by being penny wise and pound foolish, or should I be ok as we have basted fitting to work out any issues.

Thanks

 

[saskatoonjay]

I would just call this custom MTM—not “semi-bespoke”. It sounds sort of like what SuitSupply does for their custom suiting line, at around the same price.

I would want to see examples of previous custom suits on the people he made them for. And I’d want a guaranteed re-make or refund if the suit is horrible.

And yes, you sound recklessly pound foolish. Please don’t give $3400 to your tailor’s son. Maybe start with just a sport coat for $700.

 

[dieworkwear]

Not sure I understand the service. So:

1. The pattern will be made on a CAD program
2. You'll be measured and then get two fittings, one basted and the other final.
3. A cutter will be present at the fittings
4. Suit is factory made and produced overseas

Is that correct?

 

[dukeaw]

Not sure I understand the service. So:

1. The pattern will be made on a CAD program
2. You'll be measured and then get two fittings, one basted and the other final.
3. A cutter will be present at the fittings
4. Suit is factory made and produced overseas

Is that correct?

According to the son of the tailor they make the suit locally. But otherwise 1-3 is correct

@saskatoonjay

you're probably right that doing it all once is overly agressive. Odds are I wouldnt do all 4 at once.

 

[classicalthunde]

MyTailor/Hemrajani Bros have a good following/support on SF and offer something similar with three appointments as opposed to four, (measurements/selection, basted fitting, final fitting - i believe their cutting is done overseas in addition to the construction), I recently commissioned a standard business suit and will have my basted fitting in Sept. But they emphasized that they can do anything I want with regard to style details, in a true bespoke fashion

Traditionally, "Bespoke" would denote that the cutter is present at your fitting and is drafting your pattern, and they can do anything you want with regard to style options (I recall a story from Anderson and Sheppard about a guy who rode the train a lot and wanted a jetted ticket pocket on the back of his jacket so he could easily reach for his ticket when his jacket was hung up). I'd describe "MTM" as able to adjust certain measurements with more of a menu of style options (chose from these 3 types of lapel shapes, these 4 shoulder expressions, these 9 lapel widths, etc) all while being made and cut overseas. I do think there is an in between realm of "semi-bespoke" where the suit based off of a CAD pattern, but it is hand cut and made overseas so you have the flexibility for a specific lapel shape or a 3.87" lapel width but do not necessarily have a cutter present at fittings.

But FWIW, I doubt that a tailor can cut and produce a jacket domestically (esp in a high COL area like NY/CT) for around ~1K per suit all said and done. I've looked into the 'at cost' pricing of some major Chinese manufacturers of MTM, and even those come in at about close to that for H&S or VBC fabric

I always advocate wading into a new tailor rather than diving head first, i've been burned once before and dont want to have it happen again...

 

[dieworkwear]

Semi-bespoke is mostly a term of art. In Japan, some of these things are called half-bespoke. Sometimes the word is used to described MTM, and sometimes it's used to describe things that aren't fully conveyed when people say MTM. In Naples, some bespoke tailoring companies are coming up with straight-to-finish custom tailoring programs, where a client's pattern is hand adjusted and cut off a block pattern, but there's only one fitting (the final one). Some clothiers call this semi- or half-bespoke.

Between RTW and bespoke, there's a ton of variation in terms of how clothes can be made. Even between two machine-made garments, produced overseas in factories, with a salesperson fitting you in the US, not every offering is comparable. Some factories allow you to adjust more things than others. Some allow you to account for stance. The quality of the fitter matters too. Which is why, IMO, semi-bespoke is sometimes used to describe something that may be special in a crowded market. Most people think of MTM as some homogenous thing -- machine-made and one fitting -- but that's not always the case.

Anyway, I don't think the term matters as much as the product. As the poster above noted, $1000 is very low for a custom suit. I would personally be wary. Good cloth alone can run you between $40 and $100 per meter, even at a tailor's rate. You need about 4 meters for a suit. Add to that trims, canvas, and cost of labor, and there's not much profit for the store.

That said, I've bought bespoke pants for as little as $600 when a shop was testing out their new program. So maybe a $1000 machine made suit is possible if they're trying things out. Two fittings is comforting, but only if the fitter is good. I would only purchase two garments if you've seen the product on other people (normal people, not models) and like how it looks. Also if those people have a similar build to you. I currently have two orders with a tailor, my first order with him, so I don't think it's a terrible idea. But you're certainly taking on a risk. I'm only doing two orders because I've seen his work on friends. Have done it with other tailors too (one tailor was three suits and a pair of pants) and it turned out fine. But again, only because I saw the work on friends and felt comfortable.

Would not recommend asking the tailor to guarantee a good fit and allow you to get a refund. Tailors who guarantee that are usually not very good tailors. A good tailor puts a ton of time into a garment and will rightfully expect to be paid for his or her time. Tailors who allow you to return are usually not very good and banking on them selling mostly to people who can't tell the difference between a good and bad suit.

 

[saskatoonjay]

Would not recommend asking the tailor to guarantee a good fit and allow you to get a refund. Tailors who guarantee that are usually not very good tailors. A good tailor puts a ton of time into a garment and will rightfully expect to be paid for his or her time. Tailors who allow you to return are usually not very good and banking on them selling mostly to people who can't tell the difference between a good and bad suit.

Thanks for the education on this.

 

[dukeaw]

@dieworkwear

Thank you for that information on the differences.

This seems to be more made to measure with a basted fitting halfway through and a final fitting at the end.

I dropped by his studio earlier (which is on the same block as my office) and asked a few more questions. He confirmed that he makes the suits on premise with a pattern he modifies in autocad. It is full canvas construction with partial hand work. He also showed me a mtm suit he made for himself. It was a very well balanced fit on him. I also saw 2-3 pictures of other clients but those were bespoke suits.

I agree that this tailor is at a quality level they are not looking to prey on unsuspecting clients. He will be paid in full regardless

Apparently his father has international clientele and was at the moment working on a Holland and Sherry super 180 suit for a middle eastern client at the moment I stopped by, in addition to all the ultra-high net worth clients in Westchester and Fairfield County.

His father's bespoke suits are $3-4000 which makes sense for a bespoke suit. But with the son giving me a deal to do 2 made to measure suits at $1000 per suit, I'm not certain how their economics work. Maybe its to lure me in as a long term client, or maybe he feels that doing two of the same cut at the same time is more efficient and has minor economies of scale? I'm not sure

I'm leaning towards doing two suits in my first order. I will most likely save the sport coats for a second order. I know its risky, but when I see his work, the quality of his fathers work who is supervising him, and the caliber of the clientele they have, I feel they should be capable to get it right by the second fitting.

 

[dieworkwear]

I wouldn't take the "caliber" of the clientele as an indication of anything. Just because you make a lot of money doesn't mean you know more about clothes. I know plenty of bespoke tailoring companies that cater to the uber-rich, but the quality of the work isn't any good. All it means is that rich people shop there.

If you've seen the work in person and like how it looks, I would just go off that.