Dinner Jacket Question

[operamatt]

Originally Posted by Manton

If you want a classic DJ, several posts here have pointed out places to learn the details.

I have researched all of those domains before posting to s-f. They say nothing about the cut of the original dinner jacket nor any illustrations. They say the first one looked like a one-button tail coat without the tails. Looks alot like the tuxedo I am looking into.

 

[alliswell]

Originally Posted by operamatt

a bastard child indeed.

i just love the way that style of dinner jacket looks and would love a reason to have one made to finish off my black-tie attire.

You have a reason.

Originally Posted by operamatt

i just love the way that style of dinner jacket looks.

If you need the validation of StyleForum you're not going to get it.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by operamatt

I have researched all of those domains before posting to s-f. They say nothing about the cut of the original dinner jacket nor any illustrations. They say the first one looked like a one-button tail coat without the tails. Looks alot like the tuxedo I am looking into.

No.

There are two sources for the origin of the DJ:

1) Henry Poole made a "short evening coat" for the prince of Wales around 1860 or so. It was cut like a smoking jacket but made out of black cloth with silk facings, like a tailcoat.

2) In 1886, a young man wore either this coat or (accounts vary) a tailcoat with the tails cut off to a party in Tuxedo Park, NY.

In neither case are there pictures. However, neither coat looked like the one you linked. We know that because smoking jackets were never that short and tailcoats, since becoming purely evening formal wear around 1850, did not button across the chest.

What you linked is a mess jacket, which is a civilian knock-off of formal dress for European and American naval officers. Those aren't supposed to button either. A buttoning mess jacket is a true rarity that pretty much never shows up in old photos or illustrations. The civilian (non buttoning) mess jacket was a huge fad in 1936 that died quickly and has never been revived.

If you like what you posted, fine, but it's not a classic and never has been.

 

[Erablian]

The jacket in the picture you posted is not a dinner jacket, so please stop calling it a dinner jacket. It is a "mess jacket." A dinner jacket has a skirt that extends to the bottom of the seat. The mess jacket has no skirt and ends at or just below the waist.

Here is picture of something close to the original dinner jacket: http://www.blacktieguide.com/History...ge_English.jpg. It is single breasted, but cut so that it cannot be buttoned, and has turn-back cuffs.

This picture is included in this page: http://www.blacktieguide.com/History...uette_&_DJ.htm

 

[operamatt]

Originally Posted by Erablian

The jacket in the picture you posted is not a dinner jacket, so please stop calling it a dinner jacket.

I called it a dinner jacket because that is how it is labelled in the tailors catalogue. http://lhbobclothiers.com/Tuxedos.html

Thankyou gentlemen for your most recent posts; they have been extremely helpful in answering my questions.

 

[Bounder]

First, I don't think we should be quite so harsh with this guy. He's asking a reasonable, and possibly even interesting, question. Plus, he's even given us a source. I agree that the underying premise of the question is incorrect, but since when did we all have to know exactly what we were talking about to ask a question?

AFAIK, what everyone has told you is correct. This just isn't a historically recognized form. My guess is that the original tuxedo probably was a sort of tail coat without tails. Consequently, it did not button. My reasoning, if you can call it that, behind this guess is that peak lapels are a feature of tailcoats and they are also the most traditional tuxedo lapels. Evening tailcoats also have satin or grosgrain facing on the lapels. Smoking jackets don't traditionally have either of these. Also, it is hard to imagine why someone wearing a smoking jacket would have been considered shocking and revolutionary. They were pretty well-known.

Having said that, smoking jackets certainly did have a huge influence on black tie e.g., the shawl lapel.

But your picture is a weird hybrid. It looks like something from the 60s or 70s when there was a lot of unfortunate experimentation going on. As for terminology, I do not think we can hold Mr. Bob up as much of an expert given his reference to a "Full Dress Tuxedo."

I, obviously, cannot comment on whether you like it or not but I think whoever it was above that mentioned you had better be in excellent shape to wear this was dead on. One of the great things about tailored clothing is that it can do a lot to hide your physical flaws. A jacket like this would to the opposite. One extra pound and you will look like an over-stuffed sausage.

 

[pvrhye]

Looks like a tailcoat that has been buttoned (they aren't even really made to do that). Strange.

 

[operamatt]

looks like i will be sticking to my one-button peak lapel for now.

I decided to research the "mess coat" and realized I have inherited a couple from my grandfathers wardrobe. They fit quite well and I would love to have them tailored, but the quality isn't exactly great.

 

[Axel Ferguson]

I just wanted to add, that what hte Americans call tuxedo and the English a dinner jacket, is called a smoking here(The Netherlands). Usually with shawl lapel, so I guess that's another point for that origin story.

 

[tutee]

Originally Posted by Manton

2) In 1886, a young man wore either this coat or (accounts vary) a tailcoat with the tails cut off to a party in Tuxedo Park, NY.

This was also made by Henry Poole first as well. I have heard Simon Cundey talk about this and infact there is a video clip of him talking about the very first dinner jackets.

Here is a link for people who are interested in more detail. NJS got the story right and thanks to Will for posting it.

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/...er-jacket.html

PS. What Manton said on mess jacket is spot on. About it being a horrible fad and all that