Cool furniture, design objects and desiderata

[Loathing]

I thought this was a curious claim but just recently stumbled on information that clearly dispels it. Unsurprisingly, the National Palace Museum in Taiwan has the largest collection of imperial Ru Yao in the world, with 21 pieces. The British Museum is number two, with 17 pieces (including the Percival collection). The Beijing Palace Museum is third with 15 pieces. The Shanghai Museum has 8 pieces. After that, it’s a big drop-off. Any other museum is lucky to have a single example.

The Percival collection is extremely impressive and important, but I find it highly unlikely that it can compare favorably versus the collections in the Beijing and Taiwan Palace Museums, which directly inherited the imperial holdings. Much of the art and artifacts in those two museums are simply priceless.

You know nothing on the topic and you make such absurdly overconfident pronouncements. You admitted yourself you were totally ignorant of this entire field only a few weeks ago.

For a start, Ru ware is not the only type of Chinese ceramic that reaches auction prices in that range, so counting the number or Ru pieces tells you very little. Quantity is also a lot less important than quality — the BM examples are generally flawless and best-in-class. The David Vases, for example, are widely considered to be the most important ceramic objects in be world — easily worth over $100m. The Beijing Palace Museum obviously lost or damaged a vast amount of its collection during the period between 1912-1976. If you had even the most basic knowledge of China you’d be able to deduce this. The Taipei collection was scraped together in a panic and state of emergency in the middle of the Chinese civil war, and is much smaller than the Beijing collection although it generally contains better examples. I have been to all of these museums countless times (you haven’t been to any of them, have you?), I have been collecting in the field for years, and I studied Chinese art history in grad school. I have grad school friends who are curators at all of the branches of the palace museum (Beijing, Taipei, Hong Kong) — I sent them the photos of your teacups and they were not at all impressed, confirming what I said: wrong colour, wrong shape, wrong crazing, glazing too thick, stoneware body wrong colour. And no, your crazing will never age to look like real Ru ware.

Anyway, what is the point of arguing with you when you think you know everything based on a few cursory Google searches? You are intellectually lazy and pathologically overconfident.

 

[Loathing]

Just noticed this very nice imperial Ru Yao bowl in “Sky After the Rain” blue auctioned by Christie’s in 2018 for $7.3M. Only four inches in diameter.

Just a couple of pages ago you claimed there were no comparable tea vessels to your cups amongst Ru ware so you couldn’t possibly have bought cups in an authentic Ru style. This cup is about 60ml in capacity, barely larger than yours, and is a typical Ru shape. This was the point I was making but you dismissed it as usual.

 

[imatlas]

You are intellectually lazy and pathologically overconfident.

So you’re saying he meets the minimum requirements to participate here.

 

[TheFoo]

You know nothing on the topic and you make much such absurdly confident pronouncements. You admitted yourself you were totally ignorant of this entire field on a few weeks ago.

For a start, Ru ware is not the only type of Chinese ceramic that reaches auction prices in that range, so counting the number or Ru pieces tells you very little. Quantity is also a lot less important than quality — the BM examples are generally flawless and best-in-class. The David Vases, for example, are widely considered to be the most important ceramic objects in be world — easily worth over $100m. The Beijing palace museum obviously lost or damaged a vast amount of its collection during the period between 1912-1976. If you had even the most basic knowledge of China you’d be able to deduce this. The Taipei collection was scraped together in a panic and state of emergency in the middle of the Chinese civil war, and is much smaller than the Beijing collection although it generally contains better examples. I have been to all of these museums countless times (you haven’t been to any of them, have you?), I have been collecting in the field for years, and I studied Chinese art history in grad school. I have grad school friends who are curators at all of the branches of the palace museum (Beijing, Taipei, Hong Kong) — I sent them the photos of your teacups and they were not at all impressed, confirming what I said: wrong colour, wrong shape, wrong crazing, glazing too thick, stoneware body wrong colour. And no, your crazing will never age to look like real Ru ware.

Anyway, what is the point of arguing with you when you think you know everything based on a few cursory Google searches? You are intellectually lazy and pathologically overconfident.

Lol so I hit a nerve? What’s pathological is how much of your experience and personality is completely made up.

Just a couple of pages ago you claimed there were no comparable tea vessels to your cups amongst Ru ware so you couldn’t possibly have bought cups in an authentic Ru style. This cup is about 60ml in capacity, barely larger than yours, and is a typical Ru shape. This was the point I was making but you dismissed it as usual.

That is a bowl. Not a tea cup.

No worries. I’ll give your less “lazy” intellect a few more minutes to catch-up.

 

[sugarbutch]

You know nothing on the topic and you make such absurdly overconfident pronouncements. You admitted yourself you were totally ignorant of this entire field only a few weeks ago.

For a start, Ru ware is not the only type of Chinese ceramic that reaches auction prices in that range, so counting the number or Ru pieces tells you very little. Quantity is also a lot less important than quality — the BM examples are generally flawless and best-in-class. The David Vases, for example, are widely considered to be the most important ceramic objects in be world — easily worth over $100m. The Beijing Palace Museum obviously lost or damaged a vast amount of its collection during the period between 1912-1976. If you had even the most basic knowledge of China you’d be able to deduce this. The Taipei collection was scraped together in a panic and state of emergency in the middle of the Chinese civil war, and is much smaller than the Beijing collection although it generally contains better examples. I have been to all of these museums countless times (you haven’t been to any of them, have you?), I have been collecting in the field for years, and I studied Chinese art history in grad school. I have grad school friends who are curators at all of the branches of the palace museum (Beijing, Taipei, Hong Kong) — I sent them the photos of your teacups and they were not at all impressed, confirming what I said: wrong colour, wrong shape, wrong crazing, glazing too thick, stoneware body wrong colour. And no, your crazing will never age to look like real Ru ware.

Anyway, what is the point of arguing with you when you think you know everything based on a few cursory Google searches? You are intellectually lazy and pathologically overconfident.

tl;dr:

 

[sugarbutch]

Lol so I hit a nerve? What’s pathological is how much of your experience and personal is completely made up.



That is a bowl. Not a tea cup.

No worries. I’ll give your less “lazy” intellect a few more minutes to catch-up.

tl;dr:

 

[nmprisons]

Wait, did he really send his friends pictures of some guy on the internet's teacups to see if they were impressed? That's insane. Also, if he's so expert, why did he need to send the pictures to his friends?

 

[TheFoo]

Okay, I couldn’t resist going back and ripping this apart.

For a start, Ru ware is not the only type of Chinese ceramic that reaches auction prices in that range, so counting the number or Ru pieces tells you very little. Quantity is also a lot less important than quality — the BM examples are generally flawless and best-in-class. The David Vases, for example, are widely considered to be the most important ceramic objects in be world — easily worth over $100m.

You vastly overstate. The David vases are two of the most important pieces of blue and white Chinese porcelain. However, this tends to be more strongly emphasized from a Western perspective. The Chinese, rightly or wrongly, don’t like to credit innovations from the Yuan era, which I’m sure you understand given your in-depth intimacy with Chinese culture and history.

Anyway, if they really are only $100M each, that is light compared to Ru ware that has been auctioned. That is to say nothing of museum pieces.

From an Chinese/Asian perspective, Ru Yao reflects the height of achievement in ceramics. This has been consistently believed for centuries—really, since the Song. Westerners identify with blue-and-white porcelain because it is what was later exported to them. The good stuff didn’t get sold to foreigners.

The Beijing Palace Museum obviously lost or damaged a vast amount of its collection during the period between 1912-1976. If you had even the most basic knowledge of China you’d be able to deduce this. The Taipei collection was scraped together in a panic and state of emergency in the middle of the Chinese civil war, and is much smaller than the Beijing collection although it generally contains better examples.

And Percival got his imperial ceramics from where? The imperial court sold him pieces in the 1920’s, which make up the bulk of his collection. Do you think they sold him the best pieces?

I have been to all of these museums countless times (you haven’t been to any of them, have you?)

The National Palace Museum many, many times. The British Museum once. Never been to Beijing.

I have been collecting in the field for years, and I studied Chinese art history in grad school.

You have been collecting Ru Yao for years? Jeezus. I didn’t know we had one of those secret Taiwanese trillionaires amongst us.

So, you took a class? Funny you think that is supposed to impress. I took classes in Chinese history and art history, too.

Also, not impressed with studying anything in “grad school.” There are, of course, many brilliant scholars and academics in the world. But most are not anything to be impressed by. I am too familiar with the sorts of undergrads who went that path.

I have grad school friends who are curators at all of the branches of the palace museum (Beijing, Taipei, Hong Kong) — I sent them the photos of your teacups and they were not at all impressed, confirming what I said: wrong colour, wrong shape, wrong crazing, glazing too thick, stoneware body wrong colour. And no, your crazing will never age to look like real Ru ware.

You are either making this up or your “grad school friends” are as inept as you.

1. How can the color be “wrong”? Ru Yao was produced in a broad spectrum of celadon shades, which I have shown. Many called “Sky Blue” or “Sky After the Rain” appear quite close to what Li Shanming is making.

2. Similarly, crazing varies by each original Ru Yao piece and becomes more defined with use. Some had none to begin with. Numerous sources agree, including the National Palace Museum itself. Anyway, as stated and shown, these tea cups do have some crazing.

3. How can you tell the “stoneware” color from the pictures??? It is indeed supposed to be grey under the surface, but you’d have to crack apart the pottery to see this. The surface exposed to firing in the kiln can turn beige/brown/reddish. There are photos of shards from Li Shanming’s work to demonstrate the porcelain is grey. It’s one of the first things anyone asks about.

4. No “grad student” worth anything would dare make the sorts of judgements you are making based on these photos. Lighting differences alone make an apples-to-apples comparison impossible.

Given all of the above, it’s clear to me your understanding of Ru Yao is quite rudimentary. You are relying on sub-101 generalizations in the face of much more nuanced facts
and history. It’s embarrassing.

 

[edinatlanta]

Okay, I couldn’t resist going back and ripping this apart.



You vastly overstate. The David vases are two of the most important pieces of blue and white Chinese porcelain. However, this tends to be more strongly emphasized from a Western perspective. The Chinese, rightly or wrongly, don’t like to credit innovations from the Yuan era, which I’m sure you understand given your in-depth intimacy with Chinese culture and history.

Anyway, if they really are only $100M each, that is light compared to Ru ware that has been auctioned. That is to say nothing of museum pieces.

From an Chinese/Asian perspective, Ru Yao reflects the height of achievement in ceramics. This has been consistently believed for centuries—really, since the Song. Westerners identify with blue-and-white porcelain because it is what was later exported to them. The good stuff didn’t get sold to foreigners.



And Percival got his imperial ceramics from where? The imperial court sold him pieces in the 1920’s, which make up the bulk of his collection. Do you think they sold him the best pieces?



The National Palace Museum many, many times. The British Museum once. Never been to Beijing.



You have been collecting Ru Yao for years? Jeezus. I didn’t know we had one of those secret Taiwanese trillionaires amongst us.

So, you took a class? Funny you think that is supposed to impress. I took classes in Chinese history and art history, too.

Also, not impressed with studying anything in “grad school.” There are, of course, many brilliant scholars and academics in the world. But most are not anything to be impressed by. I am too familiar with the sorts of undergrads who went that path.



You are either making this up or your “grad school friends” are as inept as you.

1. How can the color be “wrong”? Ru Yao was produced in a broad spectrum of celadon shades, which I have shown. Many called “Sky Blue” or “Sky After the Rain” appear quite close to what Li Shanming is making.

2. Similarly, crazing varies by each original Ru Yao piece and becomes more defined with use. Some had none to begin with. Numerous sources agree, including the National Palace Museum itself. Anyway, as stated and shown, these tea cups do have some crazing.

3. How can you tell the “stoneware” color from the pictures??? It is indeed supposed to be grey under the surface, but you’d have to crack apart the pottery to see this. The surface exposed to firing in the kiln can turn beige/brown/reddish. There are photos of shards from Li Shanming’s work to demonstrate the porcelain is grey. It’s one of the first things anyone asks about.

4. No “grad student” worth anything would dare make the sorts of judgements you are making based on these photos. Lighting differences alone make an apples-to-apples comparison impossible.

Given all of the above, it’s clear to me your understanding of Ru Yao is quite rudimentary. You are relying on sub-101 generalizations in the face of much more nuanced facts
and history. It’s embarrassing.

Do you think the reason people give you so much **** here is that you can't let **** go or have a laugh at yourself

 

[TheFoo]

Do you think the reason people give you so much **** here is that you can't let **** go or have a laugh at yourself

Loathing’s not funny.

 

[GeneralEmployer]

I don't think Beni rugs were ever meant to be heirlooms...the authentic ones that come to market are ones which have simply run the course of their tribal life and are too old or worn for use. It's exactly the same as the way Persian rugs first came to market. You're never going to get a precious heirloom, you're getting a second-hand leftover.

And even that is a best-case scenario. Most likely what you're getting was produced to sell to non-tribespeople. Beni rugs have been widely popular in the West since at least the '70s.

Loathing is a complete imbecile. Whenever Foo is in a thread, Loathing pops up like clockwork to spread misinformation. Note the example above. I can expound on how completely wrong and idiotic Loathing's statements are, but I think his above claims are self-evidently wrong enough that they don't require a refutation (except for the bit about Beni rugs never being intended as heirlooms or multi-generational pieces, that much is true).

Almost all of Loathing's "corrections" of Foo are dead wrong.

 

[edinatlanta]

Okay, I couldn’t resist going back and ripping this apart.



You vastly overstate. The David vases are two of the most important pieces of blue and white Chinese porcelain. However, this tends to be more strongly emphasized from a Western perspective. The Chinese, rightly or wrongly, don’t like to credit innovations from the Yuan era, which I’m sure you understand given your in-depth intimacy with Chinese culture and history.

Anyway, if they really are only $100M each, that is light compared to Ru ware that has been auctioned. That is to say nothing of museum pieces.

From an Chinese/Asian perspective, Ru Yao reflects the height of achievement in ceramics. This has been consistently believed for centuries—really, since the Song. Westerners identify with blue-and-white porcelain because it is what was later exported to them. The good stuff didn’t get sold to foreigners.



And Percival got his imperial ceramics from where? The imperial court sold him pieces in the 1920’s, which make up the bulk of his collection. Do you think they sold him the best pieces?



The National Palace Museum many, many times. The British Museum once. Never been to Beijing.



You have been collecting Ru Yao for years? Jeezus. I didn’t know we had one of those secret Taiwanese trillionaires amongst us.

So, you took a class? Funny you think that is supposed to impress. I took classes in Chinese history and art history, too.

Also, not impressed with studying anything in “grad school.” There are, of course, many brilliant scholars and academics in the world. But most are not anything to be impressed by. I am too familiar with the sorts of undergrads who went that path.



You are either making this up or your “grad school friends” are as inept as you.

1. How can the color be “wrong”? Ru Yao was produced in a broad spectrum of celadon shades, which I have shown. Many called “Sky Blue” or “Sky After the Rain” appear quite close to what Li Shanming is making.

2. Similarly, crazing varies by each original Ru Yao piece and becomes more defined with use. Some had none to begin with. Numerous sources agree, including the National Palace Museum itself. Anyway, as stated and shown, these tea cups do have some crazing.

3. How can you tell the “stoneware” color from the pictures??? It is indeed supposed to be grey under the surface, but you’d have to crack apart the pottery to see this. The surface exposed to firing in the kiln can turn beige/brown/reddish. There are photos of shards from Li Shanming’s work to demonstrate the porcelain is grey. It’s one of the first things anyone asks about.

4. No “grad student” worth anything would dare make the sorts of judgements you are making based on these photos. Lighting differences alone make an apples-to-apples comparison impossible.

Given all of the above, it’s clear to me your understanding of Ru Yao is quite rudimentary. You are relying on sub-101 generalizations in the face of much more nuanced facts
and history. It’s embarrassing.

And this is just excruciating.

 

[TheFoo]

For anyone actually interested, here is what the porcelain under Ru Yao glaze looks like. The grey color is partially what makes the appearance of the finished piece so unique.

 

[beargonefishing]

For anyone actually interested, here is what the porcelain under Ru Yao glaze looks like. The grey color is partially what makes the finished piece look so unique.

View attachment 1396219

I like how it looks almost broken. Beautiful piece.

 

[imatlas]

I like how it looks almost broken. Beautiful piece.

Foo is nothing if not dedicated to his cause.