Cars We Drive!

[steveoffice]

Interesting question, though I’m afraid not a very interesting answer. At various times the top candidates in the decision process were: Mustang GT350R, BMW M2, Mercedes C63 S coupe, BMW M4 CS, and then finally, the GT3. Obviously, I was elastic as to price point. The choice was more about personal fit and itch-scratching than anything else.

NA + manual was the preferred configuration from the beginning, as a main impetus for buying an unnecessary car was timing: the available choices are quickly dying out. The GT350R was a natural starting point and I still really badly want one. But, at the time, prices were silly: $100K or so, including mark-up. Just not willing to pay the market premium on a car that, though extremely appealing, I did not believe was a good value at such a high price. But prices have come down since, as it’s become clear Ford is going to keep making them on an unlimited basis as long as there are buyers. If I could justify a second toy car, it would be the GT350R without hesitation.

The BMW M2 and M4 CS were mostly inspired by my nostalgia for the older M cars, particularly the E46 generation. I even went so far as to start negotiating a deposit on a CS. But the more I contemplated, the more I realized I was making excuses for their deficiencies in the service of adolescent memories. My wife finally said: “Look, we don’t need a car. This is a toy for you to celebrate all your hard work. I want it to be as close to your dream car as possible. Is the M4 CS your dream car?” Being honest with myself, the answer was no.

The Mercedes C63 S was a real contender. Not naturally aspirated, but if any turbo’ed engine can be forgiven, it’s likely AMG’s V8s. Deal killer was not being manual and an ugly rear end. Though, if I could only have one car for myself and needed to drive regularly, maybe I’d be in the Benz today.

The GT3 I’ve written about already. But, in short, the 911 has always been my dream car. The looks, the history, the sound, the purity—all there. Further, it seemed like we might be at an important inflection point: potentially the last naturally aspirated, manual 911 ever. Reviews were more than glowing. If you think I sound ridiculous calling it “peak 911,” give me some credit: many reviewers have called it the greatest 911 ever made and they almost universally agree the engine is simply one of the greatest, period. Plus, I happen to think it is almost perfect looking. Not very complicated: all the boxes were ticked. Only trouble was figuring out how to get one.

I didn’t consider any pure two-seaters, since I need the ability to fit a car seat in the back (yes I know the GT3 has no rear seat, but there is a workaround). Otherwise, the AMG GT R and Aston Martin Vantage would have been thoughts to consider.

Nice to read about your decision process. Carrera was never in consideration?

 

[TheFoo]

Nice to read about your decision process. Carrera was never in consideration?

Oh, I did look hard at a Carrera T, actually. I even got an allocation, spec’ed one out, and paid a deposit. But once the dealer came through with a GT3, the T was dead.

Still think it is a super cool car and the best non-GT 911 you can get today. Better than the GT3 in certain salient respects: lower limits that make the car more lively at lower speeds. Also so much cheaper! The smaller turbos mean less lag than the S or GTS. Plus, it has an undeniably unique vibe. They should have called it the Clubsport.

But for me, between the two, there was never really a choice.

 

[TheFoo]

And from reports out there, no one's really figured out how to make electric steering assist feel good yet.

While I loathe exposing myself to more accusations of fanboyism, reviewers have been quite praising of the EPAS steering on Porsche’s GT cars. Some say it is just as good as before; most say it is almost there. Consensus would then lead one to believe that though it still doesn’t exactly match the old hydraulic system for feel, it is still soundly in the realm of “good.”

I don’t have experience driving older 911s, so I can’t compare. However, I have driven my fair share of numb modern cars and more lively old cars. The GT3’s steering could be confused for a hydraulic system from 20 years ago, if not specifically from a 20-year-old 911.

So, I think it really does come down to engineering decisions meeting perceived market demand. Only “car guys” talk about steering feel, and they are a tiny, tiny piece of the market. Ninety-nine percent of everyone else hasn’t noticed a change—particularly the ones who’ve been driving Toyotas the whole time.

 

[UnFacconable]

Jalopnik wrote an interesting in depth article about BMW’s efforts to increase mechanical steering feel in the G20. I haven't driven one yet but am interested to hear if it's made a difference. Reviews seem to be mixed - all acknowledge a step up from F30, but varied as to how large a step.

Foo - thanks for the background on your process. Curious as to what sort of test drives you did. In my experience it was pretty easy to tell the difference between the hydraulic E90 and the F30 electric systems during every day drives but I’m not sure how I could choose between say a GT3 and a 911 Turbo in a typical test drive. With a high performance car, it seems like you are either doing a pretty significant shakedown drive (which would arguably be reckless driving on public roads) or you are basing it on a combination of professional reviews, specifications and a typical low intensity test drive. Sort of reminds me of trying to evaluate an uncalibrated TV at a big box store.

The cars you were looking at were pretty diverse so perhaps it was easy for you to discern between them without probing the limits.

In other news I'm looking at professional opportunities and some of the ones in contention would replace my public transit commute with a 15-25 mile drive so may be in the market for a new car soon.

 

[Thrift Vader]

So, if we are combining the criteria of 'Burg times, daily driver,and easy to maintain?

Honda Civic is an ACTUAL Supercar.



And everything below it does everything not quite as good.

BTW, I Drove one of those Renault Trophy's. absolutely mental. not the boring car i had expected.would own.

 

[Piobaire]

Here's the Audi Q8 at the Ring. Just listen to that exhaust note!

 

[HRoi]

While I loathe exposing myself to more accusations of fanboyism, reviewers have been quite praising of the EPAS steering on Porsche’s GT cars. Some say it is just as good as before; most say it is almost there. Consensus would then lead one to believe that though it still doesn’t exactly match the old hydraulic system for feel, it is still soundly in the realm of “good.”

I don’t have experience driving older 911s, so I can’t compare. However, I have driven my fair share of numb modern cars and more lively old cars. The GT3’s steering could be confused for a hydraulic system from 20 years ago, if not specifically from a 20-year-old 911.

So, I think it really does come down to engineering decisions meeting perceived market demand. Only “car guys” talk about steering feel, and they are a tiny, tiny piece of the market. Ninety-nine percent of everyone else hasn’t noticed a change—particularly the ones who’ve been driving Toyotas the whole time.

I’d agree that Porsche’s is probably the best right now. At least it’s far better than same-gen BMW. And no, it doesn’t feel like the hydraulic system. The 997 GT3 has so much feedback you can feel slight changes in road texture through the wheel. Of course, a lot of people might interpret that as unwanted NVH. It’s also a lot more work to wrestle through the curves - again, a lot of people probably don’t like that. Which leads to automakers concluding that that all needs to be engineered out of the car, as people have already pointed out

 

[TheFoo]

Jalopnik wrote an interesting in depth article about BMW’s efforts to increase mechanical steering feel in the G20. I haven't driven one yet but am interested to hear if it's made a difference. Reviews seem to be mixed - all acknowledge a step up from F30, but varied as to how large a step.

Foo - thanks for the background on your process. Curious as to what sort of test drives you did. In my experience it was pretty easy to tell the difference between the hydraulic E90 and the F30 electric systems during every day drives but I’m not sure how I could choose between say a GT3 and a 911 Turbo in a typical test drive. With a high performance car, it seems like you are either doing a pretty significant shakedown drive (which would arguably be reckless driving on public roads) or you are basing it on a combination of professional reviews, specifications and a typical low intensity test drive. Sort of reminds me of trying to evaluate an uncalibrated TV at a big box store.

The cars you were looking at were pretty diverse so perhaps it was easy for you to discern between them without probing the limits.

In other news I'm looking at professional opportunities and some of the ones in contention would replace my public transit commute with a 15-25 mile drive so may be in the market for a new car soon.

You can't test drive most of the cars I was looking at--certainly not a GT3. However, I've driven and ridden in other 991 Carreras and a Turbo S. The difference versus the GT3 in normal driving is immediately palpable. For one thing, it is much louder and noisier. The Turbo S is tuned and insulated for more comfort. Steering, braking, and throttle response on the GT3 are all much, much sharper. Also the GT3's six-speed stick is leagues better in feel than the standard seven-speed in the Carrera cars.

So, if we are combining the criteria of 'Burg times, daily driver,and easy to maintain?

Honda Civic is an ACTUAL Supercar.



And everything below it does everything not quite as good.

BTW, I Drove one of those Renault Trophy's. absolutely mental. not the boring car i had expected.would own.

The Type R is indeed a great driver's car. And it has the fastest 'Ring time for a front drive car. Proves my point, no?

Here's the Audi Q8 at the Ring. Just listen to that exhaust note!

Weird, I can't figure out how to unmute the video. All I can hear is a low, unsatisfying "whoosh," but I assume that must be someone vacuuming down the hall.

 

[TheFoo]

I’d agree that Porsche’s is probably the best right now. At least it’s far better than same-gen BMW. And no, it doesn’t feel like the hydraulic system. The 997 GT3 has so much feedback you can feel slight changes in road texture through the wheel. Of course, a lot of people might interpret that as unwanted NVH. It’s also a lot more work to wrestle through the curves - again, a lot of people probably don’t like that. Which leads to automakers concluding that that all needs to be engineered out of the car, as people have already pointed out

Have you tried the 991.2 GT cars? Steering feel is markedly better than on the regular 911 models.

 

[Dino944]

In all this discussion around choosing cars for myself, I realized that I never gave serious thought to anything used or vintage. I have a psychological prejudice. Hate the idea of someone else having been there first. Not rational at all, but there it is.

That said, to give an idea where my head is at, I have at various times really wanted an S2000, Lotus Elise/Exige, E46 M3, and a ‘73 911 S. Only the latter two are ones I would have remotely considered today, as I need a rear seat area. Can see myself restomodding a junked 80’s 911 one day, but likely when I’m much older and have much more time.

Well, I can see the idea of having a slight psychological prejudice about buying a car someone (or some people) owned before you. One of my friends feels the same way, plus he hates the idea of the car having maybe some chips or a ding or two from previous ownership. In addition there is something fun and interesting about being able to spec a car exactly how you want it, rather than trying to find a car that has as many of the options or details that you would have chosen had you ordered it when it was new.

As for vintage cars like a 1973 911S, its a completely different ball game. I enjoy having a modern and a vintage car. Modern is generally easier to drive (more forgiving and has all the save your a$$ nanny electronics) and has modern amenities (blue tooth or a good climate control system), making it idea for long weekend getaways with the wife or group drives with car clubs. Vintage is more challenging to drive, often has more quirks (vintage 911 ...basically useless AC in any pre-964, sloppy shifter especially pre 1987 915 transmission cars, heavy clutch with weird floor hinged pedals, and can you say snap oversteer), but the quirks and challenges making them very involving and fun to drive in their own way. I have a few friends that own 1980s 911 Carreras and they love them. Also, with vintage cars, you get into parts availability (not bad with 911s, but still sometimes parts can be tough to get, or they become "Unobtainium," so you need to be in contact with people who know sources that may still have the parts, plus you need people who know the nuances of the car. I don't know anyone with an air cooled 911 who takes their car to a dealer...most of the guys who have a ton of experience are at independent shops. Vintage cars are fun, but in someways, they take more patience and understanding.

 

[HRoi]

Have you tried the 991.2 GT cars? Steering feel is markedly better than on the regular 911 models.

I did. My GT4 shares the same steering rack with the GT3. I haven’t driven a 991.2 GT3 very aggressively, but from what i can tell, they feel identical.

The rack is very enjoyable to handle (heh), but it definitely requires less effort and has less feedback than the 997’s. Some may prefer it that way.

 

[bawlin]

I prefer RAS + electronic-assist in my RS, vs. the hydraulic in my old GT3. But I'm a contrarian so...

Since Foo brought up wanting an E46 M3, I have a question for @HRoi: Does owning a 997 GT3 at all make the M3 feel redundant? Different cars, I realize, but also very similar in terms of power delivery, etc.

I too lust for a clean E46 M3.

 

[HRoi]

I prefer RAS + electronic-assist in my RS, vs. the hydraulic in my old GT3. But I'm a contrarian so...

Since Foo brought up wanting an E46 M3, I have a question for @HRoi: Does owning a 997 GT3 at all make the M3 feel redundant? Different cars, I realize, but also very similar in terms of power delivery, etc.

I too lust for a clean E46 M3.

This is kinda hard for me to answer because i don’t mind/don’t think about redundancy. I’m the guy who’d be happy owning 10 different 911’s and nothing else.

But i’d say no - they’re different driving experiences. And the M3 comfortably fits 4 adults, so there’s one use case that no GT3 can cover. If i were in your shoes, I’d greatly enjoy having a car that’s at the pinnacle of what the auto industry can make today (the RS), plus a super clean near-classic with timeless looks, that almost every car fan of our generation can relate to (the M3).

But again, take my POV with a grain of salt - i own cars according to a ‘gotta catch em’ all list that’s based on emotion and not practicality. I also don’t mind paying way more than i should on upkeep for cars I might drive once a week.

But speaking of clean M3’s! My guy pulled off the valve cover today to check the VANOS and sent me a pic - that is a mint-looking valvetrain for a car that’s old enough to enlist in the military

 

[Medwed]

 

[Thrift Vader]

^^
Still itching to do something like that with an MGB GT. or a regular MGB. . . .

If i tell my new employer to go Fck himself, i might get the chance to move towards building something fun. and get paid. or not.

any more well heeled regulars looking for a custom car build?