Bespoke: Expectations, Results, Reflection

[TheFoo]

Recently, I got myself into a debate in another thread over what bespoke accomplishes versus what one expects from it. Anyway, I got to thinking about my own initial expectations and how the process has clarified my appreciation for tailoring, clothing, and style. I thought it would be interesting to start a thread where we don't focus on particular tailors, but discuss our bespoke experiences in a more general manner. Maybe newcomers to the bespoke market will find this thread helpful. What did you expect? How did the results compare? What have you learned? How do you approach bespoke now? * * * My own initial approach was largely experimental from the outset. I had learned a big lesson from my previous made-to-measure experience: in exerting too much control, I wound up with results that were aesthetically unsatisfying. Thus, when I went to see Rubinacci for the first time, I was committed to being a more relaxed, more comfortable--in fact, more confident--client. The idea was to trust the tailor to do his job. So, I did not actually know what style of jacket I was going to wind up with. I had a general feeling or sentiment, but no precise vision. No matter how many pictures I looked at, I knew that whatever I hoped for in my mind's eye was going to be quite a bit different from what would wind up on my body. In fact, it was the words others used to describe Rubinacci's work that influenced me the most. They were open-ended whereas pictures were close-ended--more fitting for an open-ended process. Unlike my previous experience with made-to-measure, my time at Rubinacci's shop was stress-free and exhilarating. In allowing the tailor more latitude to do as he judged best, I was able to follow him along paths I would not have considered. I realized that I had as much to learn as to voice. I inserted concerns, comments and requests, but, more often than not, I saw his wisdom. Overall, I wound up with a garment I understood and enjoyed more, even though I had not envisioned it beforehand. In that way, the results were far more personal to me than they would have been had I been more tight-fisted. Since then, I have followed the same approach. The result is that each successive order has become far less of an "event" and the bespoke process--including the resulting garments--has become an increasingly more transparent, integrated aspect of my lifestyle. Do I look better? Well, I think so, but I understand that's up for debate. However, I certainly feel more stylish. If I had to start using another tailor tomorrow, I don't think I'd use the knowledge or understanding I've acquired since using Rubinacci to exert more control. If anything, I've learned that there's always more to learn, and I'd want to give the new tailor the same opportunity as I gave Rubinacci to teach me something and exceed my expectations. If anyone is interested, here is my original AAAC thread from February of 2007 seeking advice on Italian bespoke tailors: http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/f...ad.php?t=65388.

 

[aportnoy]

My expectation was limited to getting a soft shouldered garment that fit better than anything I could get RTW or MTM in a fabric that would not normally be available and those expectations have certainly been borne out.

As for my results, my first try ended up producing something more akin to a costume than a suit (since remedied by another tailor). Since then, I have been 99% elated with the 30 or so pieces I've received from the two tailors I've used. (save the Solito excursion).

As for style, if you expect your tailor to give it to you, you're apt to end up wanting, as I find it an inside out not an outside in proposition.

Overall, my expectations have been more than met and I wouldn't do a whole lot differently, but that is due to the luck of finding Chris and Raph and little of my own doing.

 

[radicaldog]

Good thread idea. I think many of us--myself very much included--have made the mistake of ruining bespoke results by forcing the tailor's hand. I'd add that most tailors want their customers to be happy, so they will push them towards what they think they can do best (or, sometimes, what they can do well with the least effort -- but that also mean least risk, most of the time). Therefore, other things being equal, it is generally a good idea to give ample leeway to the tailor. Of course if by looking at his work we think that a tailor's aesthetic is too far away from our own then we should just look for another tailor.

 

[apropos]

Different strokes for different folks. Some feel that they know what they want, and push their (more willing) stylist/tailors hand. Others are content to take a step back and let others make more decisions for them. Neither approach is wrong per se, you find the best fit for your personality. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Since then, I have been 99% elated with the 30 or so pieces I've received from the two tailors I've used. (save the Solito excursion).
What do you suppose went wrong with Solito?

Originally Posted by aportnoy

As for style, if you expect your tailor to give it to you, you're apt to end up wanting, as I find it an inside out not an outside in proposition.
Agreed. But then, when it comes down to it, I wonder what real effect, if any, tailoring ever has on one's style (with a big 'S'). Sure, tailor's each have a style of doing things (sometimes called a "house style"), but I think that's a separate issue.

Originally Posted by radicaldog

Good thread idea. I think many of us--myself very much included--have made the mistake of ruining bespoke results by forcing the tailor's hand. I'd add that most tailors want their customers to be happy, so they will push them towards what they think they can do best (or, sometimes, what they can do well with the least effort -- but that also mean least risk, most of the time). Therefore, other things being equal, it is generally a good idea to give ample leeway to the tailor. Of course if by looking at his work we think that a tailor's aesthetic is too far away from our own then we should just look for another tailor.
Yes, this is in matching with my perspective. It is always alarming when a newcomer arrives on the forum with a barrage of questions on how to direct his tailor on things like pocket curvature and lapel width (to the centimeter). It's as if he's ordering off of a spec sheet, not coordinating with an artisan crafting something by hand.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by apropos

Some feel that they know what they want, and push their (more willing) stylist/tailors hand. Others are content to take a step back and let others make more decisions for them.
I think part of the point you missed in the other thread is that feeling you know what you want is different from actually knowing it--moreover, you discount the possibility that your preferences will change with what you learn. If you direct your tailor on the basis that you already know everything you need to know, he will have less latitude to optimize aspects of the garment that you have not sufficiently considered or with respect to which your knowledge is incomplete. Surely, you grant that a tailor possesses an expertise in tailoring that exceeds your knowledge as a client, yes? If so, you must realize it is necessary to "step back" at a certain point.

 

[aportnoy]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

What do you suppose went wrong with Solito?

Good question. I suppose there is/was a language barrier, but sleeves that are 2"+ short with the buttonholes cut is ridiculous, especially when he had already delivered two correct coats.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Good question. I suppose there is/was a language barrier, but sleeves that are 2"+ short with the buttonholes cut is ridiculous, especially when he had already delivered two correct coats.

Uggh. It sounds like someone was clumsy handling your numbers on re-order. Did they fix it?

 

[JPHardy]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Unlike my previous experience with made-to-measure, my time at Rubinacci's shop was stress-free and exhilarating. In allowing the tailor more latitude to do as he judged best, I was able to follow him along paths I would not have considered. I realized that I had as much to learn as to voice. I inserted concerns, comments and requests, but, more often than not, I saw his wisdom. Overall, I wound up with a garment I understood and enjoyed more, even though I had not envisioned it beforehand. In that way, the results were far more personal to me than they would have been had I been more tight-fisted.


I meant to ask/mention this in the other post you referred to. Is this not part of why you like the Rube? I believe that Whany mentioned in one of his post how much he likes the process of getting his suits done.

I have not taken the Bespoke road yet, and maybe never will. If I do, I think it will be equal parts for the experience as for the results. When Vox, described his his second return visit with his shirt maker, it was the exchange that he had with them that made me want to try them. Not so much that I thought Vox's shirt looked great or will look great in the future.

I don't understand why anyone on this forum would get into a debate between Tailor A and Tailor B and if one is worth X more than the other. For me the only thing that matters is wether it is worth it for the person spending the money.

 

[aportnoy]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Uggh. It sounds like someone was clumsy handling your numbers on re-order. Did they fix it?

Supposedly in work, but I don't see how they can without new sleeves. We shall see. On the other hand, I have been 100% pleased with Ambrosi's trews.

 

[the_sartorialist]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

What did you expect? How did the results compare? What have you learned? How do you approach bespoke now?
My foray into tailored clothing first began with a desire to achieve better fitted clothing. Given my fairly regular stature, I didn't think there were too many intricacies to worry about (at least where fit was concerned), and the motivation for custom clothing soon became driven by a desire to express one's individuality through the choice of garments that were not readily available on the RTW market. The results that I have attained to date have largely been good, as it has met my expectations - though this could be due to a whole host of reasons ranging from (i) the relatively decent craftsmanship of the tailors that I have patronised; (ii) me having a fairly 'regular' stature; (iii) not possessing an almost pedantic sense of how 'proper' fit should be (and I can appreciate the irony behind this seeing as I am discussing such topics on StyleForum!); and / or (iv) a combination of all of the above. As with the many who have come before me, the journey of commissioning custom clothing is always a learning process, where you gradually find your interests and tastes evolving over time. And it is for that very reason, that my present approach to custom clothing remains very much the same as it was when I first began in 2008: one of cautious optimism. Granted, I certainly have a much more clearly defined objective whenever I commission a new garment, but it is difficult to be sure how deeply I wish to pursue this flight of fancy. In other words, I am still trying to ascertain how much time and money I wish to be expending, all in the name of dressing well or stylishly. It is widely known that our sartorial endeavours (from suits to shirts, ties to shoes, and the whole gamut) do not come cheap, and I, like most (or perhaps, the minority?), would only set aside a modest proportion of the already finite amount of financial resource that fate (or for the religious, God) has granted me. Echoing what I had mentioned earlier, given that one's interests and tastes could change over time, there is nothing to stop me from forsaking the ideal of dressing well for other pursuits that may subsequently preside as more important. And I'm speculating here, but perhaps that could go some way towards explaining why the OP had started this previous thread (see:http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=170678) and is now subsequently adopting a more introspective attitude towards custom clothing by way of this thread? Just my 2p worth...

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by JPHardy

I meant to ask/mention this in the other post you referred to. Is this not part of why you like the Rube? I believe that Whany mentioned in one of his post how much he likes the process of getting his suits done. I have not taken the Bespoke road yet, and maybe never will. If I do, I think it will be equal parts for the experience as for the results. When Vox, described his his second return visit with his shirt maker, it was the exchange that he had with them that made me want to try them. Not so much that I thought Vox's shirt looked great or will look great in the future.
Well, I don't think I'd ever pay more for the experience if the results would otherwise be the same, but I do think there is a connection between the two. A positive experience tends to indicate a positive tailor-client relationship, and I firmly believe that leads to better results.

Originally Posted by JPHardy

I don't understand why anyone on this forum would get into a debate between Tailor A and Tailor B and if one is worth X more than the other. For me the only thing that matters is wether it is worth it for the person spending the money.
There is truth to this. On the other hand, people are not always able to specify why they like certain things. You may say you like Tailor A when, in fact, you simply like soft shoulders and Tailor B can do them just as well for less. For that reason, I think it is always helpful to scrutinize a bit beyond one's surface preference.

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Supposedly in work, but I don't see how they can without new sleeves. We shall see.
It will be funny but unfortunate when you get it back with sewn-on cuffs.

 

[Lowndes]

I am about to go bespoke for the first time and I intend to work with the tailor for the style I want. I don't want to stand there and do whatever he sees fit (nothing wrong with doing that if you want to it is just not what I want to do). Maybe that would generate better results and maybe it won't but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. That is one of the major reasons I am going bespoke. I'm just going to have fun with it, learn a lot about tailoring in the process, and hopefully come out with some good looking suits. That being said I'm not going to insist the tailor do something that he doesn't feel capable doing. I'll be my own stylist (with the tailor's input and judgment) and working within what that tailor is capable of.

Foo, you discussed this a little bit in the other thread but after reading more I still have a question (I just didn't want to jump back into the hoopla over there). Why is it different have Mariano direct the tailor and acting as a stylist than somebody who knows what they want, knows their tailor and what they are capable of, and works with them to come up with their garments? I fail to see a difference other than maybe Mariano really knows his tailors. However, from what I have learned it isn't that hard figuring out what a tailor is capable of and working within that.

 

[aportnoy]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

It will be funny but unfortunate if you get it back with sewn-on cuffs.


But think of the hotties that I'll be able to woo!

 

[Holdfast]

I only have a small handful of bespoke items (another is on the way), and only from one house, so I probably don't qualify to speak in this thread with much authority. Having said that, I approve the concept behind the thread, so will contribute, in the hope that others with more extensive bespoke experience will also chime in.

My initial expectations were both simple and vague: a good-fitting, durable suit in a typical (as far as there is such a thing, of course) Savile Row cut. I hoped that my local branch of Ede & Ravenscroft would be able to achieve this, though I must admit I was worried that because it was a branch rather than their main shop, that the distance/extra complexity in the process would diminish the end product for all the obvious reasons.

I buy slowly, so over the years, I think I've only got several suits, and one sportcoat, with another one on the way. They've ranged from satisfactory to excellent, and the reassuring thing is that each successive item has been better (or should I say, more to my personal taste, which may not be the same thing!) than the last, and I now think the pattern is almost entirely to my liking, though further refinements will doubtless continue to be made. Overall, I'm very happy with the garments, and with the iteratively improving results. I certainly don't regret spending the money, which I guess is some sort of litmus test, though probably an inadequate one.

As far as reflections go, well, I've certainly improved my eye (both with respect to fit and style details) over the course of the years. The process has certainly become better as a result - I have a clearer idea of the style, fabric and assorted details I want going in, and they know my tastes better too. I trust them more in certain areas than originally, but equally, I have more confidence deciding other issues for myself than I did at first, esp. in areas where our opinion may vary a little (and it's generally only a small matter of degree than a large difference). In short, I feel that it's become more of a working partnership. I think that's healthy, but it only comes over time and with gradual understanding of each others strengths and weaknesses.

A common question asked is whether bespoke is "worth it". No-one can judge that for another. But for me, being interested in clothes, it's an enjoyable and still exciting process, and comes with the bonus of a nice garment at the end of it.