ASW's discussion of WW Chan

[dah328]

Originally Posted by emptym

At the end we talked about the padding in the shoulders. I had requested little to none, and it seemed a bit thick to me. Patrick explained that it was because my shoulders curved forward, and I needed some padding to keep the back smooth. I said OK, and I left for a day of sightseeing. A few hours later, my girlfriend could tell I was a little preoccupied and asked why. When I told her, she got me to go back to see if they could reduce the padding, even though she prefers strong shouldered jackets.
I would be hesitant to do that. When pushed, Patrick will do whatever the customer wants, but they use padding for structure in their jackets and substantially reducing the amount of padding will compromise the structure of the jacket's shoulder. Just how unpadded you can go depends on a variety of factors, but if Patrick said you have some anatomical features he was trying to accommodate, you probably can't go as unpadded as others have. I have a Chan jacket with too little padding and the fabric on the shoulder line buckles visibly.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Originally Posted by maomao1980

Depends on if cheap Asian bespoke is part of his anti-dumping policy.

Obama could use some cheap Asian bespoke himself.

 

[JohnnyCrockett]

Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley

But, again, I'm not entirely sure that Will believes that. He doesn't have to acknowledge anything. For my part, I have had a suit made by A-Man in HK (a tailor, most would agree, just as highly regarded as Chan). I was in HK for 3 weeks, and had an opportunity to go in for several fittings (4, I think). Ultimately, the suit was good for what it was - a $1,500 bespoke suit made in HK with good cloth. It, however, does not compare well with my Raphael or Dege suits - the more expensive suits are better made (softness, stitching etc.), and fit noticeably better. Are they 3-4x better? Nope - but they represent an improvement that I deem worthy of the extra cash. I would certainly recommend that anyone visiting HK stop by Chan or A-Man, as they put out a solid product and represent a value unseen in the U.S. They are, however, in my experience not comparable to top-flight NY or London bespoke.
Fair enough. Maybe the message is that if you're not going to spend $5K on a bespoke suit, you're better off spending $1,500 or even less on something from the likes of A-Man or Chan than you are getting virtually anything else, especially something RTW, assuming you can do a number of fittings. I don't see that coming out of Will's reviews..and it doesn't have to. But I do think that the number of lukewarm posts about Chan is a bit..beneath him (Will). If you're going to continue to use a tailor you shouldn't keep publicly poo-pooing him.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett

I have not personally had anything made by any of these tailors, nor did I profess to have done so. What I have done is read reviews from those who have on places like SF and I have seen numerous photos of the work, at macro focus levels and from afar, on these fora.
Let us assume that you can tell everything about a suit's material quality and fit by looking at pictures. Even then, you cannot account for customer service, which is absolutely crucial to the bespoke process. Part of the price one pays for a bespoke suit pays for the ease with which the end product is achieved. Frankly, working with Chan from abroad sounds like a headache. I don't want to pay for things to be shipped to me before my tailor arrives in order to get a fitting. Now, maybe you're personally fine with that, but you cannot deny that it is an added complication as compared to working with Rubinacci or a big name Savile Row tailor. However, the truth is this: you probably can't tell everything about a suit by looking at pictures online. Moreover, in my opinion, those very pictures do indicate that Chan is not generally as good (to emphasize, I said generally). I don't want to get into another debate over whether Chan can effectively copy another tailor's house style or whether one personally "designs" his suit by managing Chan a certain way, but even barring those issues, one must consider the value of consistency. I've seen a lot of excellent suits made by Chan on the forum, but they are not the rule. I would feel obliged to seek very thorough guidance on how to work with Chan before I'd feel comfortable paying for their work. On the other hand, whether one likes the Rubinacci style or not, he can know very clearly what he's going to get, and he also can be more sure than with Chan that the fit will be right at the end.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett

I would grant that, at the margin, some of the tailors who charge 5-8x what Chan charges for a suit do a better job, but I also think there is a good amount of pure pretension which leads some to have such lofty opinions of these tailors' work. We are all trained to believe that higher price equals better quality, but I don't always think price scales proportionately with quality, and I think a good portion of the price of a Rubinacci, AS, Steed, whatever, after adjusting for labor rates, is due to brand name. People here are predisposed to cooing with sartorial ecstasy when they KNOW the suit they're looking at was made by one of these tailors. To compound the matter, if one of the forum greats (and I mean this with respect, not facetiously) such as you, yourself, foo, or Vox, Manton, Will (there are others to add to this list which my mind forgets at the moment) is wearing the garment, then it is met with even more praise.
Well, maybe I'm biased, but I would hardly call the reactions to my Rubinacci orders overwhelming praiseful. Putting that aside, I agree that there is always pretension to be aware of. However, I think you have to concede that, in the balance, more expensive things of the same kind as less expensive things are generally better. Proportionately better? Of course not, but better nonetheless. Otherwise, there would be very little reason for the pretension to have accumulated in the first place.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett

One of the reasons I find PG to be such an...inspiration (word choice?).... on SF is that he has managed to look, to my eye, every bit as good if not better than those in Steed, Rubinacci, Raphael, Mason when much of his stuff is made by HK tailors who charge even less than Chan.
I would not disagree that there is much to admire in the way PG dresses--but honestly, I don't exactly marvel at the fit of his suits. If they are an example of the best that Chan or a similar Hong Kong tailor can do, I think they lose handily to the competitors you listed. Of course, you can argue that my opinion of fit is biased itself. But I've over and over again described and illustrated the bases for my fit judgments, so anybody should be able to point out bias or inconsistency with specificity.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett

The real advice is that one is far better off buying a plane ticket and spending 2 weeks in HK to get everything which his heart desires made than he is to entrust several multiples of the cost of the entire aforementioned endeavor to a more "established" traveling tailor, regardless the tailor's pedigree. If you can be in person with the more expensive tailor, the results may be different but still, I would think, not with quality and price scaling proportionately.
Fly to Hong Kong? Please understand that the time and inconvenience of doing that are extremely costly in and of themselves. If I want the best, proportionate to price or not, and I don't mind traveling, why wouldn't I fly to London or Italy? It would be an odd mix of interests and priorities that would influence someone to go through the trouble of flying to Hong Kong specifically to get clothes made by a tailor you admit would not be quite as good as a tailor one could see elsewhere.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett

We're all entitled to our opinions and, to that end, Will may write whatever he likes. It is his blog. But since what he says does carry quite a bit of weight with many who read this forum and others, a subset of the population which is probably likeliest to have bespoke garments made, it would be nice to see something to the effect of what I've written above acknowledged.
But he doesn't agree with you--neither do I, for that matter. You are free to have your own opinion, but it doesn't make sense to imagine that those who disagree must have reached their conclusions by maliciously or irrationally drawing from your assumptions.

 

[maomao1980]

Foof is back!

 

[JohnnyCrockett]

Foof, I agree with most of what you've said in the above post, and maybe this thread has gone on too long already (and I accept some responsibility for that).

I still think Will's Chan posts are a on the ungracious side, but we can let that be what it is. I like the blog and I also have my own opinion of Chan's work, one which may be less informed than Will's and which might change if I were to work with them remotely.

 

[teddieriley]

Originally Posted by maomao1980

Foof is back!

+1. I think. I couldn't push through reading the last post. It's like when you want to read a book knowing something in it is good, then you see it is 800 pages and in small print so you put it back down.

 

[Will]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett

Foof, I agree with most of what you've said in the above post, and maybe this thread has gone on too long already (and I accept some responsibility for that).

I still think Will's Chan posts are a on the ungracious side, but we can let that be what it is. I like the blog and I also have my own opinion of Chan's work, one which may be less informed than Will's and which might change if I were to work with them remotely.

Go back and read my posts about the other tailors I write about. I am equally "ungracious" about all of them. That's much of the reason people read me. If I thought everything was nice, what would be the point?

I am upfront that I use Chan for warm weather clothing. That is because lightweight things don't last as long as stuff made from heavier cloth, and so I like to save a few dollars. I am also upfront that the clothes are not made to the same standard as the rest of my wardrobe. If they were, I would have switched to Chan exclusively.

 

[maomao1980]

Originally Posted by teddieriley

+1. I think. I couldn't push through reading the last post. It's like when you want to read a book knowing something in it is good, then you see it is 800 pages and in small print so you put it back down.

Best part is you don't really have to read it...

 

[edmorel]

You guys are all ignoring the elephant in the room. Vox.

 

[maomao1980]

Originally Posted by edmorel

You guys are all ignoring the elephant in the room. Vox.

I thought Vox is the room.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by maomao1980

Foof is back!
My heart never left.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett

Foof, I agree with most of what you've said in the above post, and maybe this thread has gone on too long already (and I accept some responsibility for that). I still think Will's Chan posts are a on the ungracious side, but we can let that be what it is. I like the blog and I also have my own opinion of Chan's work, one which may be less informed than Will's and which might change if I were to work with them remotely.
There's nothing wrong with starting a lively discussion. In fact, I think we need more of it around here. I'm tired of "Review of my shirt from MyTailor.com" threads (no offense to MyTailor.com clients, of course).

Originally Posted by teddieriley

+1. I think. I couldn't push through reading the last post. It's like when you want to read a book knowing something in it is good, then you see it is 800 pages and in small print so you put it back down.
Amongst the top ten nicest things anyone has ever said about me.

Originally Posted by edmorel

You guys are all ignoring the elephant in the room. Vox.
If Vox stopped posting, the forum would have 50% fewer posts. If I stopped posting, the forum would have 50% fewer words. If we both stopped posting, the forum would be 100% deprived of either of our presences. We can all agree on which would be the worst.

 

[JohnnyCrockett]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

There's nothing wrong with starting a lively discussion. In fact, I think we need more of it around here. I'm tired of "Review of my shirt from MyTailor.com" threads (no offense to MyTailor.com clients, of course).

Are you being ungracious about MyTailor!?

Originally Posted by mafoofan

If Vox stopped posting, the forum would have 50% fewer posts. If I stopped posting, the forum would have 50% fewer words.

I laughed. Hard.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

and if I stopped posting the forum would have 100% less dick references.

 

[gdl203]

Does anyone REALLY care what Will thinks about Chan? I know I could not give a flying one.