Thom Browne Fall 09 Trunk Show

[Fuuma]

Originally Posted by zjpj83

Perhaps. I have never really thought about it. I think I have an opposition to the "fashion world" to the extent that it takes a "being different and 'innovative' for the sake of being different and innovative" approach, but this objection is not limited simply to fashion but extends to the way I see art, architecture and other forms of creative expression.

I'm not such a Victorian that I can't recognize that art forms that I like and appreciate - say, impressionism - was not the "modern art" of its day that pushed the boundries of artistic expression to places where they had never been. But in my view there is a difference is in having a new outlook that itself takes talent and results in something valuable. I'm simply in the "if a 7 year old could do it, it isn't art" camp. Uncultivated of me, I know - but still, there it is. Some things are "new" and haven't been done before to some extent because they are stupid. For instance, it is possible that nobody before Thom Browne did a runway show with a bird suit. That doesn't necessarily mean that the newness is valuable. There is innovation and newness that is valueless. I'd say bird suits are an example of that. At the end of the day, a new creative vision has to have value in its own right - it doesn't have value simply because it is a new creative vision. That's my view, anyway.

In this case, my rescheduling had nothing to do with an opposition to the fashion world but rather the fact that this was not the reason for my visiting Florence, and I wanted a relaxing vacation without having to contend with the added crowds around town who were there for the festivities.

While I don't trumpet it in here you have no idea how many modern artists I think are entirely devoid of content and talent. Terence Koh is my personal antichrist, along with Dash Snow.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by zjpj83

Perhaps. I have never really thought about it. I think I have an opposition to the "fashion world" to the extent that it takes a "being different and 'innovative' for the sake of being different and innovative" approach, but this objection is not limited simply to fashion but extends to the way I see art, architecture and other forms of creative expression.

I'm not such a Victorian that I can't recognize that art forms that I like and appreciate - say, impressionism - was not the "modern art" of its day that pushed the boundries of artistic expression to places they had never been. But in my view there is a difference is in having a new outlook that itself takes talent and results in something valuable. I'm simply in the "if a 7 year old could do it, it isn't art" camp. Uncultivated of me, I know - but still, there it is. Some things are "new" and haven't been done before to some extent because they are stupid. For instance, it is possible that nobody before Thom Browne did a runway show with a bird suit. That doesn't necessarily mean that the newness is valuable. There is innovation and newness that is valueless. I'd say bird suits are an example of that. At the end of the day, a new creative vision has to have value in its own right - it doesn't have value simply because it is a new creative vision. That's my view, anyway.

In this case, my rescheduling had nothing to do with an opposition to the fashion world but rather the fact that this was not the reason for my visiting Florence, and I wanted a relaxing vacation without having to contend with the added crowds around town who were there for the festivities.
My view, and it is where I know I part strongly with Fuuma, is that if I need to know something about something else to appreciate what I am looking at then I am less interested. The minute the gallery babe starts talking about how the piece is in a dialogue with . . . I start looking at her chest.

 

[Fuuma]

Originally Posted by dopey

My view, and it is where I know I part strongly with Fuuma, is that if I need to know something about something else to appreciate what I am looking at then I am less interested. The minute the gallery babe starts talking about how the piece is in a dialogue with . . . I start looking at her chest.

To be honest you're sorta missing out on what being a westerner is. When I say we're a civilization of the commentary, of the attempt at explaining and expanding on a theme I'm not kidding; it is one of the driving points of our whole culture. Do I look at it and laugh sometimes, especially with friends who are familiar with the concept, sure but do I miss out on what my own culture has to offer, certainly not.

ps: I was already looking at her chest and not listening to her...

 

[zjpj83]

I would go to a runway show. Preferably La Perla.

 

[minus]

Originally Posted by PinkPantser

He and I exchanged glances on the street in Florence last summer (true story, minus any implied romanticism). A very arresting figure, you can't miss him.

Is it gauche to take pictures at a trunk show?

Gauche? Maybe. Appreciated by those of us who have great interest in seeing all of it but zero chance of being there if you post them? I'd have to say yes.

 

[LabelKing]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Kinda like you and the dward confederation?

Even Dwarfs Started Small.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

Even Dwarfs Started Small.

Don't dwarves start small as a matter of course?

 

[LabelKing]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Don't dwarves start small as a matter of course?

You're not a Herzog fan?

 

[dopey]

They stay small, too. Unless you rub their belly with velveeta.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

You're not a Herzog fan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even_Dwarfs_Started_Small

I see. Yet, I don't.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

You're not a Herzog fan?
That was my cousin's home movie. Shot on Super 8.

 

[bluemagic]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

To be honest you're sorta missing out on what being a westerner is. When I say we're a civilization of the commentary, of the attempt at explaining and expanding on a theme I'm not kidding; it is one of the driving points of our whole culture. Do I look at it and laugh sometimes, especially with friends who are familiar with the concept, sure but do I miss out on what my own culture has to offer, certainly not.

ps: I was already looking at her chest and not listening to her...

This is even more true of classical Chinese culture. Dopey wouldn't be able to be interested in any classical Chinese poems by his definition of interest. In fact, his appreciation of Western works seems rather odd, as well.

 

[RJman]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

Even Dwarfs Started Small.

"An angel has no memory."

 

[babygreenspots]

Originally Posted by bluemagic

This is even more true of classical Chinese culture. Dopey wouldn't be able to be interested in any classical Chinese poems by his definition of interest. In fact, his appreciation of Western works seems rather odd, as well.
So true...To me, the commentary and ongoing dialogue over centuries seems to define elite culture in China particularly, and the West as well. It's too bad for those that don't have time to immerse themselves in the tradition, but that is unfortunately the states of things. I fully relate to the frustration of not being able to get into the discourse. It makes me angry. All the lovely scribbles in the clouds are the true value; it's not the beautiful images that just about anyone with some technical skill could reproduce. At the same time, to be sellable, artists often do have to use tropes that are easily digestible by the masses (of which I am a part).

If you can manage an image that no one can forget, all the better.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

To be honest you're sorta missing out on what being a westerner is. When I say we're a civilization of the commentary, of the attempt at explaining and expanding on a theme I'm not kidding; it is one of the driving points of our whole culture. Do I look at it and laugh sometimes, especially with friends who are familiar with the concept, sure but do I miss out on what my own culture has to offer, certainly not. ps: I was already looking at her chest and not listening to her...
I think you are misunderstanding what I mean. I don't expect works to be isolationist monuments or sealed against the past. To the contrary, any meaningful culture presupposes a set of common understandings and references, and the richer the better. Most great works offer more to the more knowledgeable observer. I agree that our civilization is founded on layer upon layer of meaning. What I object to, though, are the equivalent of one legged stools - works that don't stand on their own but require something else to hold them up. That sort of work is really a form of criticism, and it is the very rare critic that really belongs outside of a newspaper column or catalog. There are some, to be sure, but as general rule, the status of the critic and the artist are vastly different to me. But galleries are filled with the works of artist who nothing much to say other than their reaction to something else. In any case, while post and response is not an efficient way of having this discussion, I don't think our disagreement is that great.