The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[tigerpac]

You change the premise of the conversation and then go about proving your point.

What you started with "...movement finishing should not be a deciding factor in picking a watch." is not "I'd like to see objective evidence that Patek is "reducing quality." "

Your statement about movement finishing may be true for most, including myself. (I do know a couple collectors who actually do heavily weigh finishing but I wouldn't say they're the norm) Finishing is, however, at least factor of quality, among other yes. The weight that one puts on it will differ to each person, but the conclusion rings true, its a factor with high-end watches.

What I was pointing to was the original issue than showing Patek has reduced quality. Specifically in finishing, they objectively have.

Now to your point about it being not being a deciding factor, yes indeed, that's usually true. But you weren't addressing my point.

 

[TheFoo]



You change the premise of the conversation and then go about proving your point. 

What you started with "...movement finishing should not be a deciding factor in picking a watch."  is not "I'd like to see objective evidence that Patek is "reducing quality." "

Your statement about movement finishing may be true for most, including myself. (I do know a couple collectors who actually do heavily weigh finishing but I wouldn't say they're the norm) Finishing is, however, at least factor of quality, among other yes.  The weight that one puts on it will differ to each person, but the conclusion rings true, its a factor with high-end watches.

What I was pointing to was the original issue than showing Patek has reduced quality. Specifically in finishing, they objectively have.  

Now to your point about it being not being a deciding factor, yes indeed, that's usually true.  But you weren't addressing my point.  

Your "photographic evidence" compares contemporary Lange to contemporary Patek. Hence, I addressed that comparison.

For the same reasons watch finishing has broadly improved across all brands, Patek finishing has gotten better: more precise tools and machinery, aided by computers, and consumers looking through display backs and reading blogs with zoomed-in digital photos.

That said, movement design in the workhorse calibers is certainly less elaborate today, but that has to do with the advent of CAD-driven design, which allows for smarter, more logical layouts.

 

[TheFoo]



However, I frankly think their current entry-level stuff is made for the opposite of collectors. The finishing is second if not third tier. [...]

If you consider the below second or third tier finishing, I don't know how you examine your FP Journe without vomiting. This is uninformed commentary at it's worst.

 

[tigerpac]

If you consider the below second or third tier finishing, I don't know how you examine your FP Journe without vomiting. This is uninformed commentary at it's worst.

Wow you got me! Make me vomit? You sound like a child. Embarrassing for the whole board really.

 

[TheFoo]



Wow you got me!  Make me vomit? You sound like a child. Embarrassing for the whole board really.

It's just laughable that someone who spent $25-30K on what is certainly a beautiful and enviable watch (one of my personal favorites, nonetheless) is so obviously unaware of it's pluses/minuses and fundamental ethos. What do you really even know about FP Journe? Journe himself openly admits in interviews that he cannot execute to Patek levels of finish and is not interested in doing so. Then you call Patek finishing second or third tier. Utterly ridiculous.

 

[tigerpac]

And if you think this is at the same or lower level of finish as the patek I posted before you'd be on a lonely island by yourself.

 

[TheFoo]



And if you think this is at the same or lower level of finish as the patek I posted before you'd be on a lonely island by yourself.

Why don't you research your own watch first. Spend three minutes on Google. Would do you a world of good. Journe's "weak spot" has always been finishing. He is philosophically opposed to obsessive finishing and would rather focus his energy and resources on movement innovation. You buy a Journe for the eccentric character, for the beautiful design, for the beatiful movement, for the innovative design, etc.--and in spite of the good, but not particularly great, finishing. Also, you do realize that the photo of that Patek movement is easily 4-5x more zoomed in than the photo of the FPJ caliber 1304 you're showing? The balance wheel on the Patek is bigger than the mainspring barrel on the Journe.

 

[tigerpac]

I realize you continue to try and change the argument to Journe. And yes, I'm well aware that finishing isn't near the top of the list for Journe personally. But I'm also aware that a lot of hand finishing goes into each piece, I've seen it myself at his manufacture in Geneva. Which incidentally took a bit more than 3 minutes.

Patek's higher end pieces are finished better, but in the entry-level they've slipped.


Please enlighten us with evidence that

".... Patek finishing has gotten better: more precise tools and machinery, aided by computers, and consumers looking through display backs and reading blogs with zoomed-in digital photos."

Has occurred in the entry level pieces. Which STILL is my point and STILL not addressed with anything other than your blanket statement that it's gotten 'better'.

 

[TheFoo]



Please enlighten us with evidence that 

".... Patek finishing has gotten better: more precise tools and machinery, aided by computers, and consumers looking through display backs and reading blogs with zoomed-in digital photos."

Has occurred in the entry level pieces.  Which STILL is my point and STILL not addressed with anything other than your blanket statement that it's gotten 'better'.

Dude--because every high-end maker's watches are better finished then they were 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago. Finishing quality is a function of precision. Precision is a function of available tools. Tools today are better. Technology, automation, computers, CNC machines, etc. On top of that, it is only since the 90's that people even started looking at their own watch movements. You're asking me to prove to you that cars are more or efficient than they were 50 years ago or that more kids are going to college. Come on.

Look at any vintage Patek movement from the 50's, 60's, etc. The bridge plate design will often be more elaborate and the finishing may be more ornate than today's workhorse movements (the 324 and 240), but the quality of finish is not as good. It is less regular, with more tool marks. Geneva striping regularly bleeds into the anglage. The striping itself is less regular. Perlage is less regular and consistent. Why? Because in 1950, you had to rely more on simpler hand tools and you didn't have computer-aided tools and systems to help execute and QA your work.

 

[tigerpac]

You could have at least put in the effort to google some pictures after your personal insults before. Or a simple, sorry I made something personal that has no need to be - would be lovely..

As usual you take a grain of a truth and stretch it into your full conclusion.

You are correct in that, more precise machining will result in some better elements of finishing, mostly consistency as you mentioned correctly. You're taking for granted that machining is the only part of finishing. From the looks of the movements, Patek has certainly reduced the hand finishing of those parts. The newer movements are less elaborate and ornate so that they can rely more on the machines. And while the machining might be better, Patek doesn't give the same treatment to those parts after machining in the entry level pieces. Higher-level pieces they do. Hence their movements looking like they do.

 

[TheFoo]

Legendary 1953-1960 Patek Caliber 12-600AT (company's first automatic movement, time only, no complications):

2004 Patek Caliber 315 (contemporary workhorse central rotor automatic movement, time only, no complications):

Current Patek Caliber 324 (successor to the 315; same functions and virtually identical except for silicon balance spring, ceramic ball bearings for the rotor and faster beat)

 

[scottcw]

How about those Ochs und Junior watches?

 

[Coxsackie]

“wrong-headed and misinformed”
“spew contrarian bullshit”
“if you knew anything about…”
“This is uninformed commentary at it’s [sic] worst”
“What do you really even know about FP Journe?”
“Spend three minutes on Google. Would do you a world of good.”

Why do you feel the need to pepper all your arguments with personal insults and ad hominems? They don't strengthen the case you are trying to make. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Let's all try to show a bit of respect for each other's opinions, even if such behaviour doesn't come naturally.

 

[SteveH35]

Sorry to interrupt this flame fest, but thought you guys might enjoy the last podcast I did with Ariel Adams. We talked a lot about production and the overall market

 

[cyc wid it]

:foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: :foo: