The Cocktail Thread

[life_interrupts]

Originally Posted by aybojs

I know you busted my balls earlier, but I think we're on the same boat. I know my bar scene very well in my city (Houston, which is the 4th most populous in the country), and I'd honestly have a lot of trouble thinking of a bar which stocks both green creme de menthe and white creme de cacao. Seriously, even the guy who complained about rusty nails earlier on probably doesn't get the fact that my bar, which is one of the most high volume in the city, sat on a bottle of Drambuie for well over a year without a single person ordering that drink (it was killed by a Brit who spent the night ordering neat Drambuie shots). I think that's one thing that bugs me about the e-gullet/wannabe cocktail afficianiado crowd; they learn the drinks, but they have no idea of how niche their requests are. I'd love to make you the great drink you read about on drinkboy.com, but the fact is, the economic reality makes it so it isn't even worthwhile to stock the liqueurs you need for it, and you certainly shouldn't take it out on the bartenders, who are just used to preparing basic highballs, because that's what the non-pretentious crowd orders.
The old cocktails have been making a comeback for several years now, in part because people are tired of order a Red Bull and Vodka. I bartended in DC for years and every bar I worked at carried green creme de menthe, white creme de cacao. These are liqueurs ($7 wholesale) that don't cost much. Drambuie, more expensive, but not prohibitively so. None of them got used much when and where I worked, except for the Ritz-Carlton, but that's an older crowd. Making some of those old cocktails is more time consuming, but it's a part of the gig and fortunately, not many people order them. That doesn't mean it wasn't a pain ********** to find the Campari for the Negroni some college kid returning from break in France wanted.

 

[spertia]

Originally Posted by rdawson808

IHowever, if you ain't got simply Creme de Menthe, that seems weird to me. No bitters? Odd. No <fill in the blank with something rare>? Not that surprising.


Exactly. How much does a bottle of Creme de Menthe really cost?? I don't think it's a major committment for a bar to stock seldom-used liqueurs when they cost $10 a bottle or whatever. We're not talking about some rare, esoteric ingredient that is going to be really costly to keep on hand.

 

[aybojs]

Originally Posted by Skiffing

Uh, hate to break to you "dude" but you do come off as a dick.

I've lurked here for some time and most of your posts come off as aggressive and douchebaggy despite all your potshots at people you deem pretentious or douchey.

You seem to have this big need to act "real" and call out all the posers especially since you know, you graduated from Princeton where apparently, you were the "realest" one there. Wouldn't want to work at white collar place so Whoa!, working as a bartender now.

Oh well, sorry I offended you. Well, I guess at least I'm putting my degree to good use!

Originally Posted by life_interrupts

The old cocktails have been making a comeback for several years now, in part because people are tired of order a Red Bull and Vodka. I bartended in DC for years and every bar I worked at carried green creme de menthe, white creme de cacao. These are liqueurs ($7 wholesale) that don't cost much. Drambuie, more expensive, but not prohibitively so. None of them got used much when and where I worked, except for the Ritz-Carlton, but that's an older crowd. Making some of those old cocktails is more time consuming, but it's a part of the gig and fortunately, not many people order them. That doesn't mean it wasn't a pain ********** to find the Campari for the Negroni some college kid returning from break in France wanted.

The thing is I actually enjoy getting the chance to make real cocktails, as opposed to the generic liquor+mixer. It's just that from a business standpoint, none of them get ordered enough to justify stocking on a regular basis, not only for cost reasons, but because there's only so much space. It'd be awesome to have a bottle of Dom Benedictine lying around just so you could make a traditional Singapore Sling if you wanted, but for all intents and purposes, it just makes more sense to stock that extra bottle of Grey Goose or Crown in its place, because at least you know that's going to move.

 

[Kent Wang]

$12 is also not so bad, considering many of these &quot;ultra lounges&quot; charge more for a vodka Red Bull.

I don't begrudge bars for having a poor selection. Do you begrudge Outback Steakhouse because they can't make you a steak tartare?

Aybojs, have you been to Beaver's in Houston? They just opened and are the best cocktail bar in town.

 

[aybojs]

Originally Posted by Kent Wang

Aybojs, have you been to Beaver's in Houston? They just opened and are the best cocktail bar in town.

Yep, went there a few weeks ago, and it turns out I knew the bar manager there. It's a nice place, and I hope the cocktail scene there doesn't get overshadowed by the restaurant's hype, which is why I usually don't care to work at or visit restaurant bars. It's a shame the market just isn't there for cocktail bars in Houston, which is why it's so hard to find one.

 

[Huntsman]

Originally Posted by aybojs

I'm not making my posts just to be a dick, dude, but seriously, I work as a bartender. I have a very full gauge of what people order. In my 2 years behind the bar, I've never seen a rusty nail, a grasshopper, an old fashioned, a Ramos gin fizz, a Last Word, an Aviation, or whatever trendy drink is ordered by wannabe cocktail experts who read e-gullet order.
Well, I didn't think you were just being a dick, but I admit that we many never agree on this. There may be both geographic issues (I'm in the Northeast), and style (trendy vs. old-school) issues in terms of stock and tastes. I'm not a wannabe internet cocktail expert; the first drink I ordered in a bar was a JW Black, neat. The second was an Old-Fashioned, the third was a Rusty Nail. I ordered a Sidecar a year before I knew egullet existed and I'm not a member anyway. Before I could drink I typically sat at the bar anyway (with patrons who were drinking) because I enjoy bars. What do you do when you're not talking? I study the liquors. I can't recite sports stats because I don't watch and I don't care, but I know what the places I visit stock. Therefore I find your statement that you've never seen those cocktails in two years shocking. The Fizz, the Last Word and the Aviation are in another class of 'out there' and I made that distinction -- but old-fashioned's? My 'home' bar does a few old-fashioneds a month, according to the bar manager. While it's a moderately upscale establishment (for the area, which isn't even medium-size town in NJ by any stretch), it isn't trendy. They have DOM B&B and Drambuie. Almost every bar I've been in in a 200 mile radius that isn't your locals-only country corner bar has Drambuie, Galliano, B&B, Sambvuca, and others. Nobody has Luxardo Maraschino and that's pretty much expected. As for the trendy bars in my area -- The students go to two bars, and I pretty much stay out because I don't like the company (even when I was a student, I only went once to a party in the back -- drank Macallan). Maybe those barmen just make Jagerbombs and the ever-popular Jello shot (once beautifully described as adolescent alcoholic cunnilingus), but I don't know. I can be found in the one next door that stocks 18 single malts and every basic spirit (am a Scotch guy at heart). They probably wouldn't know an Aviation but the barman whipped me up an Old-Fashioned when I asked (except I asked him to stop when he added Sweet&Low, he apologized and said "that's how people wanted them these days."

Originally Posted by aybojs

I make more than my fair share of Redheaded Sluts, Surfers on Acid, or Bull Blasters because people actually order Jaeger. I can't even count on one hand the bars that have the ingredients to make a proper Grasshopper, but that's because the demand for such a drink just isn't high enough for the bars around here to stock green creme de menthe and white creme de cacao.
As I explained, this is not my experience at all. In fact, it's the polar opposite as I've not heard any of those drinks you mentioned ever before.

Originally Posted by aybojs

Anyway, my point is that the people who would like to put on airs by labelling themselves cocktail experts don't realize how limited their recipes are, and tend to put on airs when actually ordering at real bars where the supply and demand are taken into account.
Meh. Not my experience. My deportment is adjusted for the environment, and every place I've been in that cut their own fries has the basic ingredients. I'm not going to be a prick and order a Sidecar in the Dew Drop Inn. Yet, if, as I did last week in Maine, see oddities like Noilly-Pratt vermouth and Chartreuse on the shelf, I get excited and order a more sophisticated drink -- wound up having a great conversation (and a nice Manhattan) with the bartendress, who showed off her boss's beginning attempts at house bitters. She asked where I bought mine as her boss was looking for some "special bitters from New Orleans" in Maine, which is a big stretch. I said, did he want Peychauds's? She said "yes!" and I left him a note with places you could mail-order it.

Originally Posted by aybojs

The thing is I actually enjoy getting the chance to make real cocktails, as opposed to the generic liquor+mixer. It's just that from a business standpoint, none of them get ordered enough to justify stocking on a regular basis, not only for cost reasons, but because there's only so much space. It'd be awesome to have a bottle of Dom Benedictine lying around just so you could make a traditional Singapore Sling if you wanted, but for all intents and purposes, it just makes more sense to stock that extra bottle of Grey Goose or Crown in its place, because at least you know that's going to move.
Just don't see it. So to me, it sounds like either Houston, or Houston's taste, is not directed toward cocktails at all, or you work in bars the kiddies go to. Neither of which is a problem, nor does it make you a dick, but that this is not my experience doesn't mean I'm a wannabe who's putting on airs, either. Anyway, my $0.02. Regards, Huntsman

 

[IUtoSLU]

Resurrection!

I have been attempting to create my own cocktails, just for fun. Here is one I came up with today. It may need a little work, but here goes:

Desert Sunset (named such because of its color)

1.5 oz Cognac - I used Remy Martin 1738
0.5 oz St. Germain
0.25 oz Benedictine
2 dash Fee Bros Cherry bitters
2 Dash Fee Bros Peach bitters.

The flavor is very herbal and is just sweet enough. I think I may need to add a sour component (read: lemon). If anyone tries this, tell me what you think!

 

[samus]

Just whipped up a Corpse Reviver #2 from earlier in the thread, and it really is quite nice. I used generic triple sec instead of Cointreau unfortunately, and no pastis swirl in the glass, but it still does the trick and it's a good way for me to use up the Lillet I have in the fridge. Too sweet on its own but the honeyish under-note it gives the cocktail is just right.

 

[Vito]

I've never really enjoyed cocktails, and I almost always order a beer when I'm out drinking. But my favorite mixed drink has always been a Tom Collins, especially a double.

 

[samus]

After considerable difficulty tracking down a bottle of Maraschino, I can now attest to the virtues of Huntsman's White Martini (the Maraschino cuts down what I find to be the sickly sweetness of the Lillet just right) and the Aviation (minus the nearly-impossible-to-find, as far I can tell, creme de violette). Cheers!

Edit: Hunt, you suggested the addition of St.-Germain to one or both of those at some point I recall. Was that in addition to the other ingredients, or as a replacement for one or more of them?

 

[samus]

For those of you in the Philadelphia area, exciting news! Chef Garces is opening a new whiskey bar/restaurant in Center City! details here: http://www.phoodie.info/2009/04/15/g...e-nonexistent/

Classic “Prohibition” cocktails will include: Old Fashioned, with Noah’s Mill 114-proof bourbon, Boissiere Italian vermouth, Fee’s Brothers oak-aged bitters, cherry and orange; Sazerac with Sazerac rye, Herbsaint absinthe, Peychaud’s bitters and lemon; and Philadelphia Fish House Punch, a favorite of George Washington’s interpreted by Chef Garces in the style of his wildly popular sangrias at Amada and Tinto, with rum, brandy, peach brandy, lemon, lime, orange and maraschino. Contemporary “Repeal” cocktails will include: Village Idiot, Fighting Cock Kentucky straight 108-proof whiskey with The Bruery Black Orchard seasonal black wheat beer and ginger; The Latin Quarter Club, Cazadores reposado tequila, Flor de Cana rum, Johnny Walker Red, grapefruit and grapefruit bitters; and Sansom Street Flip, Charbay blood orange vodka, seasonal fruit and egg white. Cocktails will range in price from $11 to $18.

Not to mention duck fat french fries. I'm drooling already.

 

[FLMountainMan]

Last Sunday my friends and I had a big poker game. I was rushed on the way there, so I threw together a drink - 1/3-1/2 Maker's Mark, the rest a mix of Collins Cherry Cocktail, Lime Juice, and a splash of tonic. It was actually really good. My friends asked what it was, I told them, and they called it &quot;a man in a dress&quot; to question my manhood. I'm keeping the name and continuing to make the drink. It's pretty damn good.

 

[Johnny_5]

I had this cocktail the other night:

Woodford reserve
muttled blood orange
a couple dashes of angostura
a generous splash of sweet vermouth

I enjoyed it. Probably because I love bourbon...

 

[FLMountainMan]

Originally Posted by spertia

Exactly. How much does a bottle of Creme de Menthe really cost?? I don't think it's a major committment for a bar to stock seldom-used liqueurs when they cost $10 a bottle or whatever. We're not talking about some rare, esoteric ingredient that is going to be really costly to keep on hand.

In my city, bars actually have to pay more for liquor than regulars. There's not really a "wholesale" price.

 

[RedLantern]

Anyone know if bergamot is used in any cocktails, either in a liquer or a type of bitters? It seems like it could be a pretty interesting ingredient.