The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[j ingevaldsson]

Can you tell us who your top 3 or 4 shoe experiences have been with? I realize too that changes in personnel (last makers, etc.) and processes can occur over time with some companies. Thanks in advance.

All the bespoke makers I use regularly are world-class makers, but sure, my personal top four list would be:
1. Yohei Fukuda
2. Main d'Or
3. Catella Shoemaker (previously G&G, but I basically followed allt things G&G to Catella when Daniel Wegan left).
4. Hiro Yanagimachi

Time to write a script that scours shoegazing and tally up all of his shoes haha.

On top of my head Jesper seems to like Fukuda and Main d'Or (quite a few pairs from both). Surely he wouldn't have gone to these makers for 5th+ pairs unless they do good work.

Hehe no need for that, I do an article on all my shoes with a few years apart (here's the latest one, guess it should be time again soon...), and on all bespoke makers there's a buyer's guide, and all new bespoke pairs I do a picture special article, so you should be able to find all quite easily just by browsing the menu

Vancouver. He's still going to use outworkers. One of his partners is going to help manage the process in the UK while he does the lastmaking in North America.

Cool that he's relocating! Good for you North America

Bespoke uppers and shoes are sent all over, nothing weird with that. For example many British makers use Japanese outworkers, there's some good upper makers in Germany and Vienna which many brands use, and so on. Since it's work in progress it's also easier with taxes. It's been like this for a long time.

 

[epsilon22]

Hehe no need for that, I do an article on all my shoes with a few years apart (here's the latest one, guess it should be time again soon...), and on all bespoke makers there's a buyer's guide, and all new bespoke pairs I do a picture special article, so you should be able to find all quite easily just by browsing the menu

Looking forward to the next update on your shoe collection.

Yes I know about those buyer's guide articles, they have been immensely helpful when I was considering MTM/bespoke shoes, and I really appreciate that. I may not follow every article you write, but whenever I need information related to footwear, I always go back to your blog.

 

[jonathanS]

All the bespoke makers I use regularly are world-class makers, but sure, my personal top four list would be:
1. Yohei Fukuda
2. Main d'Or
3. Catella Shoemaker (previously G&G, but I basically followed allt things G&G to Catella when Daniel Wegan left).
4. Hiro Yanagimachi



Hehe no need for that, I do an article on all my shoes with a few years apart (here's the latest one, guess it should be time again soon...), and on all bespoke makers there's a buyer's guide, and all new bespoke pairs I do a picture special article, so you should be able to find all quite easily just by browsing the menu



Cool that he's relocating! Good for you North America

Bespoke uppers and shoes are sent all over, nothing weird with that. For example many British makers use Japanese outworkers, there's some good upper makers in Germany and Vienna which many brands use, and so on. Since it's work in progress it's also easier with taxes. It's been like this for a long time.

Seems like you prefer English-styled shoes rather than Italian? Is that fair to say?

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Looking forward to the next update on your shoe collection.

Yes I know about those buyer's guide articles, they have been immensely helpful when I was considering MTM/bespoke shoes, and I really appreciate that. I may not follow every article you write, but whenever I need information related to footwear, I always go back to your blog.

Glad to hear that, cheers!

Seems like you prefer English-styled shoes rather than Italian? Is that fair to say?

Absolutely. Although I do like some of the old-style Italian bespoke and those who do nice updated interpretations of this, like Akira Tani and Calzoleria Carlino, and some of the more toned down French ones, like John Lobb Paris and Philippe Atienza.

 

[TimothyF]

- To make bespoke shoes is very difficult, so much can go wrong, so even if it's not common, one can have loads of fittings before ending up right (MTM is actually often easier, since one don't address the really tiny details the same way, it's less risk of messing things up the same way, but con is of course one might not reach the 100% perfect fit in terms of both comfort, support and minimum excess space. And yes, bespoke suits are easier, for many reasons, one being one don't have the comfort issue in the same way. Feet are a *****).

- I've had everything from one fitting to ~ten fittings with bespoke shoemakers I've worked with, and I've had final pairs ending up badly to either be stretched or remade. But all makers have finalised pairs I've been pleased with at the end. To me, that has been the one thing that matters.

- Although I can understand you want a refund, that you've lost trust in the maker, the normal process is that a maker continue until customer is pleased. That is their obligation. They could of course offer a refund to make you satisfied, but it's not standard.

Would this rather be an indictment of the entire bespoke industry? Contrary to their marketing and the high prices, it seems the chance of getting a great fit on the first commission is at best a 50-50 proposition. It's quite a shame most first-time buyers of bespoke shoes are not aware of this, and they get fleeced

Quite a few possibilities, or a combination thereof, for why bespoke failure rates appear so high; none of which is flattering for the industry:

1. Just the nature of making shoes, and little to do with individual talent: nailing the fit on the first commission is a crapshoot. But still, no bespoke business I'm aware of is open and honest with their clients about this fact
2. Some (most?) shoemakers are terrible at gauging fit, and to the extent they advertise themselves as best of the best, they are charlatans
3. Some businesses are unscrupulous, and will not stand behind their product or craftsmanship. They are little better than fly-by-night operations which resort to fraud

 

[epsilon22]

it seems the chance of getting a great fit on the first commission is at best a 50-50 proposition.

 

[jonathanS]

Would this rather be an indictment of the entire bespoke industry? Contrary to their marketing and the high prices, it seems the chance of getting a great fit on the first commission is at best a 50-50 proposition. It's quite a shame most first-time buyers of bespoke shoes are not aware of this, and they get fleeced

Quite a few possibilities, or a combination thereof, for why bespoke failure rates appear so high; none of which is flattering for the industry:

1. Just the nature of making shoes, and little to do with individual talent: nailing the fit on the first commission is a crapshoot. But still, no bespoke business I'm aware of is open and honest with their clients about this fact
2. Some (most?) shoemakers are terrible at gauging fit, and to the extent they advertise themselves as best of the best, they are charlatans
3. Some businesses are unscrupulous, and will not stand behind their product or craftsmanship. They are little better than fly-by-night operations which resort to fraud

I’d agree that there’s less room for error with mtm (both for bespoke shoes and tailoring).

But, there’s less room to get things right also. I think you’re accepting a “good enough” fit with mtm. And if that’s what you’re after, have at it.

When bespoke is done correctly, it’s clearly better. To your point there are a lot of marketing salesman masquerading as tailors. And that can lead to less than desirable results.

I think you can trust a maker like Fukuda, wegan, the Japanese lady who left foster, etc. But I’ve heard less than desirable stories from even the largest houses (whether in England or Italy). I won’t out the makers here.

 

[TimothyF]

Hang around these here parts long enough, and the horror stories come out of the wood work

I think you can trust a maker like Fukuda, wegan, the Japanese lady who left foster, etc. But I’ve heard less than desirable stories from even the largest houses (whether in England or Italy). I won’t out the makers here.

To Jesper's point, these trustworthy makers distinguish themselves particularly in customer service: they are willing to make it right until the customer is happy with the fit. Hitting the bullseye on the first try still seems a high bar, but only they know their "batting average"

I agree that the West End firms, today, are in a sordid state, and I may not even use them to replace a heel. The only downside with your list of makers is key person risk. Something put the principal out of commission, ditto for the client, pardon the pun

 

[epsilon22]

Hang around these here parts long enough, and the horror stories come out of the wood work

Yea but how representative are these posts of the entire clientele of these bespoke makers? People are more likely to post their stories online when they're unhappy. I imagine for every complaint you see here there are several customers who are quietly enjoying their shoes.

Not saying these posts are useless, if anything I use them to check how these makers deal with issues, should they arise. Some would deliver substandard products and tell you to pound sand if you're not happy, others would offer remake or refund -- that's important info for potential customers. That said, I'd be wary of pulling statistics out of these anecdotal stories as if they'd represent the whole clientele of the makers.

 

[TimothyF]

Yea but how representative are these posts of the entire clientele of these bespoke makers? People are more likely to post their stories online when they're unhappy. I imagine for every complaint you see here there are several customers who are quietly enjoying their shoes.

Not saying these posts are useless, if anything I use them to check how these makers deal with issues, should they arise. Some would deliver substandard products and tell you to pound sand if you're not happy, others would offer remake or refund -- that's important info for potential customers. That said, I'd be wary of pulling statistics out of these anecdotal stories as if they'd represent the whole clientele of the makers.

First of all, I made a distinction between whether a maker can nail the fit on the first or second shoe for the customer, and whether he makes the customer whole when catastrophe strikes. Second of all, I'm well aware of potential perils with anecdotal data. But since we are unlikely ever to get more objective data in this niche, I relied on the overwhelming amount of bad experiences far too many overrated establishments (e.g. Cleverly), plus my personal experiences with a lot of places self-advertising as bespoke, to reach the conclusion that disreputable bespoke makers far outnumber reputable ones.

Think about it: if makers like Templeman, Fukuda etc. are such needles in a haystack, and establishments like Cleverly have much more volume than independents, then it stands to reason on a count of client interactions that I was actually being generous when I said 50-50 (which, by the way, I did qualify the statement with "it seems")

 

[clee1982]

Probably shouldn't draw broad stroke conclusion if we know the sample are biased, in terms of "actionable item" I suppose proceed with caution is best bet (and I'm sure someone who order multiple successful pair can throw some past time observation on what pitfall to avoid and what to watch for etc.)

 

[Texasmade]

I think a big part of the problem is the marketing around getting a "perfect fit" when most customers never had a "perfect fit" shoe on top of their actual preference of how they like their shoes to fit.

When the shoes don't fit and the customer spent a whole bunch of money on uncomfortable shoes, they feel like a sucker and keep quiet. The makers I've dealt with are willing to remake/redo the shoes. They want happy customers that will return for future orders.

 

[clee1982]

I'm pretty sure I have no idea what perfect fit is since I'm Mr. RTW...

 

[jazznpool]

Would this rather be an indictment of the entire bespoke industry? Contrary to their marketing and the high prices, it seems the chance of getting a great fit on the first commission is at best a 50-50 proposition. It's quite a shame most first-time buyers of bespoke shoes are not aware of this, and they get fleeced

Quite a few possibilities, or a combination thereof, for why bespoke failure rates appear so high; none of which is flattering for the industry:

1. Just the nature of making shoes, and little to do with individual talent: nailing the fit on the first commission is a crapshoot. But still, no bespoke business I'm aware of is open and honest with their clients about this fact
2. Some (most?) shoemakers are terrible at gauging fit, and to the extent they advertise themselves as best of the best, they are charlatans
3. Some businesses are unscrupulous, and will not stand behind their product or craftsmanship. They are little better than fly-by-night operations which resort to fraud

Probably shouldn't draw broad stroke conclusion if we know the sample are biased, in terms of "actionable item" I suppose proceed with caution is best bet (and I'm sure someone who order multiple successful pair can throw some past time observation on what pitfall to avoid and what to watch for etc.

Reading here and elsewhere has been helpful to select people to begin the bespoke shoe process with. There is always going to be some degree of risk. History of integrity and good faith business conduct helps temper that risk. And, I can assess for myself how our first meeting and other interactions go.

Something I learned from business is to not put any time pressure on the people I have commissioned. Within normal limits I want them to have the time they need to achieve excellent results. If additional fittings are necessary, I welcome them.

 

[TimothyF]

Probably shouldn't draw broad stroke conclusion if we know the sample are biased, in terms of "actionable item" I suppose proceed with caution is best bet (and I'm sure someone who order multiple successful pair can throw some past time observation on what pitfall to avoid and what to watch for etc.)

I don't think the bias is nearly as great as people make out. It can be argued in the opposite direction that some positive reviews are just shills, or the business owner under an alias

I think TexasMade already brought up the question that some part (majority?) of the bespoke clientele is not very discerning about fit. I wouldn't underestimate the size of the "more money than sense" crowd, nor those too embarrassed to admit they blew $5k on a famous bespoke name

I think this community is representative enough of the discerning portion of bespoke buyers, so that if a happy client of, say, Cleverly felt his brand is unfairly tarnished, he would counter the naysayers with his positive account. Still waiting for that to happen...

Furthermore this community is pretty good at weeding out nonsense complaints, given enough detail. So we would end up with close to a representative sample of informative reviews about a maker, among enthusiasts passionate and generally knowledgeable about shoes. And pound for pound I would take the detailed negative review over a generic positive review, because the negative side is likely more objective, better reasoned, and more attuned to minutiae

No disagreement on your actionable item at all