Sartorial mythbusting

[Manton]

Rougly speaking, an A&S/Napoli sleeve looks like this: l )

That is, shorter, straighter front, longer curvier back. The curve is not quite shaped like the above, either. There is more fullness at the top rather than it being evenly distributed in the middle.

I personally like the way it looks. It wears great.

I think Solito sleeves are even fuller than A&S.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by whnay.

This thread is nerd. For real....

Gee, Bill...it's not even noon EST.

But, bottoms up!


- B

 

[whnay.]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Gee, Bill...it's not even noon EST.

But, bottoms up!


- B

No alcohol necessary for this thread.

 

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by Manton

Not basted.

I was there with foof when Hitchcock was showing off this special thread he uses to do the shoulder seam and to set the sleeves. I think it was silk. It was almost wiry and sort of kinky, yet also stretchy. You could tug and tug at it, and it would not break. Cotton thread, on the other hand, breaks just like that.

He was definitely able to manipulate the two panels of cloth on either side of the shoulder seam back and forth like tectonic plates, and they always snapped back to normal without any sign of wear or damage.

Pre-waxed hand silk thread. Everyone uses it.

It would be easy for me to grab a part of a coat and ay "look at how this stretches/moves/slides/whatever" which is magical and will be comfortable and which you will never find elsewhere. You have no way of really knowing whether what I say is true or really means anything or whether it's "received wisdom". They showed how the bias canvas stretches on the length, to which I say "SO WHAT?" the front doesn't stretch and there is no vertical tension exerted on the front so what is the purpose of having a stretchy front? Thing is, I just thought of a benefit of cutting the canvas on the bias (for a drape coat only), which may have been Scholte's original motivation, but has become distorted into "look- stretchy canvas!"

There's so much of this mythology floating around (not just about A&S but about the craft in general) that even I, as a tailor, have a hard time sorting though it all sometimes.

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by Manton

He was definitely able to manipulate the two panels of cloth on either side of the shoulder seam back and forth like tectonic plates, and they always snapped back to normal without any sign of wear or damage.


Fast-forward to 2:18 for visual proof of this phenomenon.

 

[whnay.]

Originally Posted by apropos

Fast-forward to 2:18 for visual proof of this phenomenon.

FWIW - I can attest to it as well - not that I think it matters...or would brag about it when trying to explain or convince someone to use A&S...

 

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by apropos

Fast-forward to 2:18 for visual proof of this phenomenon.
Which I just also accomplished with a machine-sewn seam. And the point of my blog posting was that even the machine-sewn seam stretches and springs back. Silk is stronger? Sure. But I couldn't break the machine seam even when pulling on it because of the stay tape, and we don't use cotton thread in the shoulder; furthermore, a machine seam consists of TWO strands of thread, not one. He is giving you a demonstration by pulling on one thread and breaking another, and it all sounds good, but it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. "It's waxed so it's waterporof" I'm sorry, I've never heard something so silly. It's waxed so it doesn't knot while sewing. How will a waterproof seam help a tweed jacket? It's statements like these that put the rest of what he says in doubt. Breathe, Jeffery.

 

[TRINI]

Originally Posted by jefferyd

Breathe, Jeffery.

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by jefferyd

Breathe, Jeffery.
Stay around, you're a real gem.

 

[TheFoo]

I took pictures of the stretching (finished, not basted) shoulder. However, I soon discovered that still images do not capture motion. You learn something new every day.

 

[Manton]

FWIW, I don't see how or why the shoulder seam would stretch with ordinary movement anyway, nor have I ever felt it do so on my own clothes.

But it does seem to me that the armhole seam would be subject to a lot of stress, and I think I do notice that. So maybe Hitchcock is not wholly wrong?

 

[RJman]

This threak needs erstwhile member the truth to carve up some A&S jackets. Is there a Bat Signal for him or sthg?

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Manton

FWIW, I don't see how or why the shoulder seam would stretch with ordinary movement anyway, nor have I ever felt it do so on my own clothes.

But it does seem to me that the armhole seam would be subject to a lot of stress, and I think I do notice that. So maybe Hitchcock is not wholly wrong?

He explained that it helps the jacket mold to the wearer better, not that it accommodates more movement--I think.

 

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by Manton

FWIW, I don't see how or why the shoulder seam would stretch with ordinary movement anyway, nor have I ever felt it do so on my own clothes.

The Poole tailor whose work I took apart agrees with you. I think I agree with you but need to test it first.

Originally Posted by Manton

But it does seem to me that the armhole seam would be subject to a lot of stress, and I think I do notice that. So maybe Hitchcock is not wholly wrong?
There may be something to this one here. But he doesn't talk about the armhole, he talks about the shoulder. But armhole elasticity is more hotly debatable and probably my next experiment.

Originally Posted by RJman

This threak needs erstwhile member the truth to carve up some A&S jackets. Is there a Bat Signal for him or sthg?

Soyez patient. J'arrive.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

He explained that it helps the jacket mold to the wearer better, not that it accommodates more movement--I think.

There is canvas and wadding and haircloth in between. Again, it sounds good on paper, but doesn't hold up.

 

[Montrachet]

I think the problem is just with the conclusion. "hand-sewn shoulder seams may be artisanal and lovely if you have money to burn, but serve no measurable purpose" What you can really only conclude from what is shown is that they're not more stretchy. There's more to a shoulder than stretching. To be honest though, I never considered the stretchiness of my fabric choices in suiting. I guess if I wanted to optimize that aspect, I'd just go with raglan sleeves of a cotton-spandex blend. No?