Putting Off The Married Life

[Manton]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Are you trying to nitpick my comparison? Biatch.

Hey, the law makes the distinction so it must be, you know, true.

 

[amerikajinda]

Originally Posted by HgaleK

It's like getting in to a car knowing that you're going to get in a wreck, you just don't know the severity.

Very well said. This sums up marriage in a nutshell.

 

[Etienne]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Why not just put an expiry date with an option to renew on your domestic partnership contract instead?
This exists in the chi'ite brand of islam.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Personally, and this is just me talking out of my tail feathers...I think I'd prefer to see a child raised by a decent single person, than raised in a dysfunctional marriage.
I do too, but I don't think that's very relevant here.

Originally Posted by kwilkinson

I was talking with another person about this earlier today. How many people here that believe that pre-nups are a good idea have parents who are divorced?
My parents have been married more than 30 years. Wait, did you mean to each other? Just kidding of course.

I'm not sure I am in the "pro-prenup" camp though. I had not thought about this before, since I don't really want marriage for myself. I must say this discussion is convincing me of their virtue, especially the insurance comparison.

Originally Posted by Manton

That is, I understand thinking the likelihood of a split is high, but wanting to be with a person nonetheless, but I don't understand wanting to get married.
As a legal statute, marriage still has many good points even if you are not of the dove-eyed idealist disposition.

Originally Posted by tiecollector

That's the whole point, a pre-nup is like insurance. Nobody buys insurance expecting something bad to happen.
I like your analogy, but this is only part of the question, I think.

Another part of Manton's point is that the sheer fact that you have insurance makes you sloppy in trying to avoid the something bad (or is a sign that you are prone to the something bad). I'm not sure that's always the case, though, so I'm rather inclined to agree with the pro-prenup crowd here.

Originally Posted by Manton

Leaving aside all the asshole snark (which I am dissapointed to see from you, to be honest), I have to ask, why do you care then? If marriage is so flimsy and transitory to you, why bother with it?
Because it entitles you to many legal protections?

 

[Etienne]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

Étienne, I would add to this that it is a greater form of commitment to be legally married. However, it is a bastardized kind of commitment.
That's exactly what Brassens says in his song La non-demande en mariage.

 

[countdemoney]

So just some context around the original piece. Dr. Helen Smith counsels men on a professional basis. You can read her blog here:
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/

Many of the men she deals with face utter ruin in divorce - loss of access to children, loss of rights etc. One of her professional focuses is on the emotional devastation that marriage causes for men. The issues she describes are very real.

A true story for you. One of my best friends was in a civil union (both were previously divorced and wouldn't "marry" again), had a child together and bought a house. He was the primary caregiver for the child.

She decided to have an affair with a co-worker. Knowing she would lose in a custody fight, she cooked up an accusation that my friend hit her. Upon her 911 call, he was arrested and put in jail during Christmas. With everyone gone over the holiday, he wound up spending three days in jail. A subsequent restraining order meant that he couldn't even enter his own house without a variety of hoops to jump through. All of his work equipment was in the house. For nine months he had to incur the cost of separate living space, be mostly separated from his child and worry about employment prospects if he were convicted on a felony count.

At trial, ten months later, he was fully acquitted. All of the pain and bullshit he had to go through because his partner was willing to lie to the police. He's still dealing with the mess.
=============

That's backdrop for what Helen Smith is writing about. If you're a guy who knows anyone with a similar experience, you realize that the system is really stacked against you, just because you have a penis.

So why deal with it? The numbers show that men are increasingly going galt on marriage. Smith's primary points are that:
1. The current system overprivileges women
2. The effects of divorce and the justice system on men are severe
3. Men are opting out because of it

With that as her baseline, her arguments really turn towards the social. If you believe that marriage provides a social good (as she does), her view is that you need to work for things that bring men's rights back into equilibrium.

You may now continue with the unflattering assumptions about each other.

 

[Fuuma]

Originally Posted by countdemoney

So just some context around the original piece. Dr. Helen Smith counsels men on a professional basis. You can read her blog here:
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/

Many of the men she deals with face utter ruin in divorce - loss of access to children, loss of rights etc. One of her professional focuses is on the emotional devastation that marriage causes for men. The issues she describes are very real.

A true story for you. One of my best friends was in a civil union (both were previously divorced and wouldn't "marry" again), had a child together and bought a house. He was the primary caregiver for the child.

She decided to have an affair with a co-worker. Knowing she would lose in a custody fight, she cooked up an accusation that my friend hit her. Upon her 911 call, he was arrested and put in jail during Christmas. With everyone gone over the holiday, he wound up spending three days in jail. A subsequent restraining order meant that he couldn't even enter his own house without a variety of hoops to jump through. All of his work equipment was in the house. For nine months he had to incur the cost of separate living space, be mostly separated from his child and worry about employment prospects if he were convicted on a felony count.

At trial, ten months later, he was fully acquitted. All of the pain and bullshit he had to go through because his partner was willing to lie to the police. He's still dealing with the mess.
=============

That's backdrop for what Helen Smith is writing about. If you're a guy who knows anyone with a similar experience, you realize that the system is really stacked against you, just because you have a penis.

So why deal with it? The numbers show that men are increasingly going galt on marriage. Smith's primary points are that:
1. The current system overprivileges women
2. The effects of divorce and the justice system on men are severe
3. Men are opting out because of it

With that as her baseline, her arguments really turn towards the social. If you believe that marriage provides a social good (as she does), her view is that you need to work for things that bring men's rights back into equilibrium.

You may now continue with the unflattering assumptions about each other.

So you think that current divorce laws are more harmful to men than women, can you provide some details about that? Not anecdotes about your step-brother's next door neighbor please...

 

[MetroStyles]

^^^ I'd like to believe I am sharp enough to pick a person who would never do something like that, but you never know. It's frightening. I mean I don't think any of these guys would suspect their wives being capable of this kind of behavior before the marriage. But it happens anyway.

Then again, I can see a rotten relationship from day one when it comes to judging my friends. Not to sound like I'm "posturing" as people have been accused of in this thread, but I feel that if you are a guy with a backbone and know how to stay in control of your situation, this is much less likely to happen. A lot the friends I see getting married off are already quite whipped and their conjugal life has barely begun.

Then again, I may be overestimating my abilities to size up a woman's true nature and might be in for a ugly surprise 20 years. I sure hope not.

 

[visionology]

I've put marriage off as long as I can possibly muster at age 30. I could probably go a while longer without being married to be quite honest, however my girl would never go along with that. 3 years is already too long for her. To lose her would mean starting all over, most likely just trying to find someone else just like her so at this point I figure why not make it permanent.

Personally I am more afraid of the post marriage blues that every seemingly every couple goes through where the relationship gets stale, sex becomes scarce, personal maintenance goes down, and you end up staying together more for your children and companionship than for the reasons you entered the relationship in the first place. I am going to try my hardest to not work into this stereotype although I know it's easy to get lulled into complacency.

 

[edmorel]

Originally Posted by visionology

Personally I am more afraid of the post marriage blues that every seemingly every couple goes through where the relationship gets stale, sex becomes scarce, personal maintenance goes down, and you end up staying together more for your children and companionship than for the reasons you entered the relationship in the first place. I am going to try my hardest to not work into this stereotype although I know it's easy to get lulled into complacency.

Do you honestly know people like this or is this just a generalization? Both the wife and I care more about our appearance, do more stuff in terms of going out and going away and still regularly ********, and not "going through the motions" sex. Do you really know 30-40 year olds that have been married and just don't ******** anymore

I am not a social person and we are good friends with maybe 4-5 couples but those couples also, as far as I am told, still have lots of sex and do similar things to what they did when they were simply dating.

Is sex with your girl stale at 3 years?

 

[countdemoney]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

So you think that current divorce laws are more harmful to men than women, can you provide some details about that? Not anecdotes about your step-brother's next door neighbor please...

Enjoy:
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

 

[Fuuma]

Originally Posted by countdemoney

Enjoy:
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

I skipped through it quickly, that guy is a marsupial.

 

[theincumbent]

Originally Posted by Manton

I wonder what the % is of actual marriages that carry pre-nups. Among SF MotUs, the % is no doubt 100%, but what is it in the real world? .001%?

Use of premarital agreement has quintupled in the last 20 years, and that 20 percent of remarried couples resort to them. Donna Beck Weaver, The Collaborative Law Process for Prenuptial Agreements, 4 Pepp. Disp. Resol. L.J. 337 (2004).

That's all I found.

 

[countdemoney]

Originally Posted by edmorel

Do you honestly know people like this or is this just a generalization?

I honestly know people like this. At least 6 of my friends have experienced droughts longer than 6 months where those droughts were not tied to pregnancy. I believe several board members have candidly discussed the diminishment of conjugal activities after marriage/children in other threads.

I remember visiting one friend where we went out to dinner and his wife held his hand on the walk home. Later, he cried when he confessed to me that it was the first time there had been affection between them in 3 months. Both are bright, fit, polite, etc. They were in love when they married.

I am extremely happy for you that you have a successful marriage. It is a wonderful thing. My own parents have had 50+ wonderful years together, and I hope you get there too. But, I would describe your experience as the exception. That says many good things about you and your wife.

But to think that guys don't see the bad that happens to their friends is to ignore the reality of 50%+ divorce and that women still win the majority of alimony and child care.

I realize that the reward of committed relationships is supposed to trump the risk, but the penalty's are far more tangible. All of you who've spoken up abut the benefits of marriage struggle in your ability to describe your partner's importance and goodness in your lives. That's probably a good thing in terms of your relationship, but it makes selling a skeptic all the more difficult.

 

[Dakota rube]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

I skipped through it quickly; this thread is marsupialed.

ftfy

 

[globetrotter]

there are downsides to marridge, and the biggest is that I don't get anywhere near as much sex as I would like. but I am still very happy, and wouldn't trade the situation for being single and a million dollars.