Is classy wear going out of style in the Western world?

[mak1277]

Wearing worsted wool tailoring for everything is just as boring.

Obviously this is not what I'm suggesting, but again (IMO) it reflects a very narrow point of view about tailoring. I'm not really talking about worsted wool suits at all. I'm more thinking about flannel and tweed, corduroy and cotton. I'm talking about wearing chinos with a jacket and tie for a nice dinner... or a wool/cashmere sport coat with flannel trousers to visit an art museum...or wearing fatigue pants and a chambray shirt with a tweed sport coat just for fun when I run errands (tailoring as outerwear is something I do fairly often). My point is that it's possible to enjoy tailoring outside of a work environment. You may not feel like you want to do that, but there are plenty of occasions where you won't feel out of place in an odd jacket/trouser combo - you just have to pick your spots.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

In Japan, everyone still wears suit and tie to the office and the women dress very elegantly too. Good quality dress shoes are still in high demand there too.

Apart from 'cool biz' (see the other reply), there's a lot to comment on here. First, it depends what you mean by 'the office' - standards of dress are very varied in Japan these days. But where there are clear standards, there is very little room for self-expression. It's not a choice and it is is not 'SF-approved', it's office dronewear, and no-one likes it outside the office. Women in the office generally dress how they are forced to dress by incedibly sexist standards. They rarely get taken seriously or have any chance of advancement, are really there as adornment to the company ("flowers of the offce") and are often still expected to leave their job when they marry. There has been a huge backlash against this recently, with courts ruling that women could not actally be required to wear high heels, and a lot of #metoo activism against pervasive office harassment.

 

[rjc149]

Obviously this is not what I'm suggesting, but again (IMO) it reflects a very narrow point of view about tailoring. I'm not really talking about worsted wool suits at all. I'm more thinking about flannel and tweed, corduroy and cotton. I'm talking about wearing chinos with a jacket and tie for a nice dinner... or a wool/cashmere sport coat with flannel trousers to visit an art museum...or wearing fatigue pants and a chambray shirt with a tweed sport coat just for fun when I run errands (tailoring as outerwear is something I do fairly often). My point is that it's possible to enjoy tailoring outside of a work environment. You may not feel like you want to do that, but there are plenty of occasions where you won't feel out of place in an odd jacket/trouser combo - you just have to pick your spots.

Our presence on a menswear forum, and our interest in it, is likely the only equivalency between guys like me and the other men opining here, as there are generational and socioeconomic gaps clearly at play on these threads -- not to mention, obvious lifestyle differences.

My need and desire to wear tailoring, while definitely there, is more limited in its scope. I like being well-dressed but I dislike being over-dressed. Whether that constitutes a narrow point of view about tailoring, I guess that's subjective as per individual attitude toward it. We form our perspectives based on our daily realities.

My overall point is that we wear, or even prefer, tailoring for reasons above maximum comfort. I think challenging the objective truth that clothing designed for comfort is more comfortable than dress clothing is just a manifestation of nostalgic ruing, which deems the old way to be qualitatively superior because it was the precedent and its personally preferred.

Many of these comments essentially state "I wish men still dressed the way they dressed 50 years ago" which is fine as statement of personal yearning and preference.

"The way men dressed 50 years ago is superior to the way men dress now because" becomes an argumentative thesis which I feel is clearly undermined by basic human experience in regards to comfort -- New Balance sneakers are more comfortable than dress shoes. And I own very comfortable dress shoes. But I'm not going to believe anyone who says wearing their cork-bedded dress shoes over cushioned sneakers for being on their feet for long periods of time is more comfortable. They may prefer it, but it's for reasons over strict comfort.

 

[Blastwice]

Well, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone of anything.

But yeah, my dress shoes are more comfortable than my sneakers and I would rather wearing tailoring than a t-shirt. For comfort reasons.

My t-shirt manufacturer makes a one-size fits all cotton garment in a factory, my tailor works off of my body's measurements, with the cloth I choose, and can style it exactly as I desire. Are we really having a debate about which garment will ultimately be more comfortable for me to wear?

 

[pasadena man]

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One thing I will give these leaders credit for is that they are generally wearing collars that are high enough and stiff enough to stand up under the coat without a tie. When this world leaders going tieless at conferences trend started they would often be wearing dress shirts, designed specifically to be worn with a tie, where the collar would collapse under the lapel, totally ruining the line of the top block.

 

[pasadena man]

I think that occasionally we overemphasize cultural factors in CM/casualization trends, and under emphasize demographic/migration/weather factors.

In 1950 only one of the ten largest US cites was in the Sun Belt: NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, LA, Detroit, Baltimore, Cleveland, St. Louis, Washington DC, Boston.

In 2015 seven of the ten largest US cities were in the Sunbelt: NY, LA, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Antonio, San Diego, Dallas, San Jose.

The massive American migration to the Sunbelt helps explain the move to more casual clothing. LA, the Bay Area, and similar warm cities, have a lot more style initiating and defining influence now, versus London or New York, than they did 60 years ago. Stated differently, if Mark Zuckerberg was based in London, I don’t think he would be running around in just a t shirt 70% of the time.

 

[JohnMRobie]

My t-shirt manufacturer makes a one-size fits all cotton garment in a factory, my tailor works off of my body's measurements, with the cloth I choose, and can style it exactly as I desire. Are we really having a debate about which garment will ultimately be more comfortable for me to wear?

Your decision to buy uncomfortable t shirts is a you problem, not a t shirt problem.

 

[JFWR]

Our presence on a menswear forum, and our interest in it, is likely the only equivalency between guys like me and the other men opining here, as there are generational and socioeconomic gaps clearly at play on these threads -- not to mention, obvious lifestyle differences.

My need and desire to wear tailoring, while definitely there, is more limited in its scope. I like being well-dressed but I dislike being over-dressed. Whether that constitutes a narrow point of view about tailoring, I guess that's subjective as per individual attitude toward it. We form our perspectives based on our daily realities.

My overall point is that we wear, or even prefer, tailoring for reasons above maximum comfort. I think challenging the objective truth that clothing designed for comfort is more comfortable than dress clothing is just a manifestation of nostalgic ruing, which deems the old way to be qualitatively superior because it was the precedent and its personally preferred.

Many of these comments essentially state "I wish men still dressed the way they dressed 50 years ago" which is fine as statement of personal yearning and preference.

"The way men dressed 50 years ago is superior to the way men dress now because" becomes an argumentative thesis which I feel is clearly undermined by basic human experience in regards to comfort -- New Balance sneakers are more comfortable than dress shoes. And I own very comfortable dress shoes. But I'm not going to believe anyone who says wearing their cork-bedded dress shoes over cushioned sneakers for being on their feet for long periods of time is more comfortable. They may prefer it, but it's for reasons over strict comfort.

I know it might sound strange to you, but I am going to legitimately say that my dress shoes are -actually- more comfortable than sneakers for -me-.

I recognize this isn't a universal opinion. But my feet can't stand soft sneaker crap. They hurt badly in sneakers. In dress shoes, I don't get pain.

It's paradoxical, but it is how my feet work. I have flat, wide feet, with barely no arches, so the hard surface helps. That's my belief at least.

As for tailored clothing: Listen, would I wear a sportscoat to go to sleep in? No. But if we're comparing clothing to clothing that is meant to be worn outside the house, then I don't take tailored clothing to be less, but often significantly more, comfortable than contemporary casual stuff. Unless the casual stuff is equivalent to pajamas, which many are, tailored clothing is-as or exceeds those options.

 

[Blastwice]

Your decision to buy uncomfortable t shirts is a you problem, not a t shirt problem.

Bold of you to assume. What do they say about assumptions?

 

[Blastwice]

I know it might sound strange to you, but I am going to legitimately say that my dress shoes are -actually- more comfortable than sneakers for -me-.

I recognize this isn't a universal opinion. But my feet can't stand soft sneaker crap. They hurt badly in sneakers. In dress shoes, I don't get pain.

It's paradoxical, but it is how my feet work. I have flat, wide feet, with barely no arches, so the hard surface helps. That's my belief at least.

As for tailored clothing: Listen, would I wear a sportscoat to go to sleep in? No. But if we're comparing clothing to clothing that is meant to be worn outside the house, then I don't take tailored clothing to be less, but often significantly more, comfortable than contemporary casual stuff. Unless the casual stuff is equivalent to pajamas, which many are, tailored clothing is-as or exceeds those options.

This makes perfect sense. Classical shoemakers (some of which have been doing it for hundreds of years as a family business) can tell you a hundred things wrong with a modern sneaker and make you a much more stable, comfortable shoe that actually supports your weight.

 

[JFWR]

This makes perfect sense. Classical shoemakers (some of which have been doing it for hundreds of years as a family business) can tell you a hundred things wrong with a modern sneaker and make you a much more stable, comfortable shoe that actually supports your weight.

Exactly. It actually does make sense that a tradition that has its roots in hundreds-of-years-old practice would know how to make shoes for people that fit well and feel good.

Then again, I wouldn't wear a pair of dress shoes to go running a marathon in. But that is not what they are intended to be used for. But I've walked 10 miles in good, leather-and-cork dress shoes without pain.

 

[rjc149]

Well, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone of anything.

But yeah, my dress shoes are more comfortable than my sneakers and I would rather wearing tailoring than a t-shirt. For comfort reasons.

My t-shirt manufacturer makes a one-size fits all cotton garment in a factory, my tailor works off of my body's measurements, with the cloth I choose, and can style it exactly as I desire. Are we really having a debate about which garment will ultimately be more comfortable for me to wear?

Comparing a mass-produced t-shirt to a custom dress shirt is comparing apples to oranges... the more analogous comparison would be a mass-produced t-shirt versus a custom t-shirt, and a mass-produced dress shirt versus a custom dress shirt.

I doubt there's a comparison in comfort between a mass-produced t-shirt and a mass-produced dress shirt, if we're comparing equivalent tiers of athleisure and dress clothing in a purely comfort debate.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Comparing a mass-produced t-shirt to a custom dress shirt is comparing apples to oranges... the more analogous comparison would be a mass-produced t-shirt versus a custom t-shirt, and a mass-produced dress shirt versus a custom dress shirt.

I doubt there's a comparison in comfort between a mass-produced t-shirt and a mass-produced dress shirt, if we're comparing equivalent tiers of athleisure and dress clothing in a purely comfort debate.

The argument is nonsense if we are talking purely comfort.

Signed, the guy who came home from the office today and changed into a SiC t-shirt and cashmere hoodie to play with his kid.

 

[rjc149]

I know it might sound strange to you, but I am going to legitimately say that my dress shoes are -actually- more comfortable than sneakers for -me-.

I recognize this isn't a universal opinion. But my feet can't stand soft sneaker crap. They hurt badly in sneakers. In dress shoes, I don't get pain.

It's paradoxical, but it is how my feet work. I have flat, wide feet, with barely no arches, so the hard surface helps. That's my belief at least.

And that's a perfectly valid statement to make on your own behalf. It strains belief, since modern athletic sneakers are engineered for maximum comfort and orthotic support, but I'm not calling you a liar. Your feet are your feet.

We ask "why has athleisure become so prevalent?" or "why is tailoring declining in popularity and increasingly relegated to the realm of hobby?" Following Occam's Razor, answer is "because athleisure is more comfortable and practical to wear, is easier to maintain, is more versatile for a range of activities, and is far less expensive for the majority of people."

I don't think the response to this fairly incontrovertible truth is to contend that it's factually incorrect-- because it isn't. Rather, my response is "I wear tailoring because it's a joy for me to own and wear." The joy transcends pure comfort and utility -- and that joy is enhanced when the tailoring happens to be very comfortable. But for tailoring, comfort is incidental to its primary purpose. For athleisure, comfort is its primary purpose. Hence its ubiquity.

 

[rjc149]

The argument is nonsense if we are talking purely comfort.

Signed, the guy who came home from the office today and changed into a SiC t-shirt and cashmere hoodie to play with his kid.

The argument is rooted in a personal love of their tailored garments-- which is fine, and I am sympathetic to that sentiment, but when making a general statement about why we dress, it lacks objectivity. Most people prefer dressing down because it's the path of least resistance.