First Savile Row bespoke

[corpseposeur]

richard anderson MTM for 3500 bucks was pretty good but pandemic delayed things. now I have a slightly too tight suit but its wearable. now that I have learned more I am inclined to give other tailors a try but last I saw of my wife's bespoke jacket it looked pretty good. hopeful I will get soon (this year).

If you have 3500+ GBP for Huntsman's offshore line or a MTM, that's about what Kent & Haste charge for a bespoke 2 piece suit, cut in the same way and handmade at their shop.

I have no issue with MTM or offshore tailoring, but 3500 GBP is a steep bill when you have suitable alternatives for "the real deal".

 

[othertravel]

An interesting non-bespoke option would by RL’s purple label MTM service at their London flagship.

It won’t have the precision of good bespoke, but it does offer exclusive/interesting fabrics, and fits inspired by Savile Row. Just an option to consider.

 

[dauster]

If you have 3500+ GBP for Huntsman's offshore line or a MTM, that's about what Kent & Haste charge for a bespoke 2 piece suit, cut in the same way and handmade at their shop.

I have no issue with MTM or offshore tailoring, but 3500 GBP is a steep bill when you have suitable alternatives for "the real deal".

makes a lot of sense but I live in SF, CA I don't think kent & haste will travel to CA any time soon. Same reason I recently bought some Tom Ford suits. I like the style and they fit good enough. Most importantly they are very convenient to get - no hassle.

Also, it was $3,500 so less than 3k pounds. for the RA MTM suit.

 

[RSS]

Also, start early, because Savile Row is not getting any cheaper, even considering changes in cost of living, incomes etc.

I agree. When I first went to the Row in the 70's the price of my suit was less than $1000.

I am struck by the fact that the participants in this forum (Is it true of all clothing fora?) only ever mention a very few SR names: Huntsman, Poole, Anderson & Sheppard, Richard Anderson…Who else? Not a lot.

I was not the first generation of my family to use A&S. That is why I went there. Also, at the time (1970's) there was no Internet to tell us all about it. I decided to leave A&S (in the 90's) for two reasons: First I wanted more structure. Second, I was becoming disappointed with the work. I ended up at Huntsman primarily because I'd met and liked the house manager (more later). I might also note that I went to Richard Anderson at the time he opened. Except for having been a cutter at Huntsman, he wasn't that well known.

I note you mention Terry Haste. Of course, he started at Huntsman and was a cutter there. I have great respect for him.

They also seem to consider that work done by outworkers is, per se, inferior to work performed in-house and that larger houses consequently produce better garments than smaller ones.

I have never suggested this.

I shall freely admit that my knowledge of Savile Row, if not derived from direct observation or conversations with people, comes from Richard Walker’s The Savile Row Story, published in 1988 (!). The industry has changed and shrunk a lot since then but the author, if I remember correctly, made the point that a customer’s satisfaction depends on 1) establishing a relationship, 2) finding the best price / house style ratio to fit one’s taste and needs. According to him, cuts had become more homogenized than formerly, and the level of quality / skill was pretty much equal around the Row (in the larger geographical area of, say, Hanover Square to Piccadilly).

1988 is 33 years ago.

I feel, and please correct me if I get the wrong impression, that people are obsessed by brands (a word I dislike – you should have seen the lines of people trying to get into L***s V*****n in rue de la Paix yesterday…): cf. the names in my first paragraph. Why are there no mentions (or very few mentions) of Meyer & Mortimer (my own tailors for almost fourteen years so I may be prejudiced), Dege, Davies, Norton, Denman & Goddard and the other firms resident in St George Street, Kent & Haste, Benson & Clegg, Malcolm Plews (who is apparently thought of as the cutter’s cutter) and others I may forget? Are people looking for “trophy garments”?

I tried Dege before I went to Huntsman. The coat was very stiff and not to my liking. Brian (at Huntsman) promised me they could give me a similar structure with more of the feel of A&S. They did.

As for brands, I have not one "designer" brand in my wardrobe. Frankly I have a low opinion of L.V. and most businesses that plaster their names and/or logos all over their products. As for Savile Row tailors, I doubt 1 in 50 men (women too) are familiar with even the largest houses. Using one isn't necessarily going to impress others. Must have been about 15 years ago but I recall one woman asking me who "made" my coat. Her response was a gush of "My husband OOONLY wears ARMAAANI." It was amusing, but I said nothing.

Richard Walker also wrote that the same outworkers often work for many big-name houses as well as for smaller ones. I would add that some outworkers most likely prefer working from home and not to be tied to a firm. Your cutter will (should) make sure that any garment with his label in the inner right pocket will be worthy of his firm before you collect it. If he knows you as a repeat customer, that will surely happen. If that were not the case, then change tailors.

I did. More than once in my 40 years.

I'll add that I chose tailors that made trips to the US. I was often in England but their transatlantic travel picked up the pace. It was especially important to me as I live on the West Coast.

 

[TomTom]

makes a lot of sense but I live in SF, CA I don't think kent & haste will travel to CA any time soon. Same reason I recently bought some Tom Ford suits. I like the style and they fit good enough. Most importantly they are very convenient to get - no hassle.

Also, it was $3,500 so less than 3k pounds. for the RA MTM suit.

Agree,I have been their customer since the days when they were still Kent,haste and lacquer.. Always an immaculate service, amazing clothes and Terry is a treasure throw of anecdotes and funny stories.Going back there for me is like going to catchup with friends and order some clothes when at it.

 

[RSS]

Terry is a treasure throw of anecdotes and funny stories.

Moreover, he is one of the nicest fellows in the business. He's truly likable.

 

[Frog in Suit]

I agree. When I first went to the Row in the 70's the price of my suit was less than $1000.

I was not the first generation of my family to use A&S. That is why I went there. Also, at the time (1970's) there was no Internet to tell us all about it. I decided to leave A&S (in the 90's) for two reasons: First I wanted more structure. Second, I was becoming disappointed with the work. I ended up at Huntsman primarily because I'd met and liked the house manager (more later). I might also note that I went to Richard Anderson at the time he opened. Except for having been a cutter at Huntsman, he wasn't that well known.

I note you mention Terry Haste. Of course, he started at Huntsman and was a cutter there. I have great respect for him.

I have never suggested this.

1988 is 33 years ago.

I tried Dege before I went to Huntsman. The coat was very stiff and not to my liking. Brian (at Huntsman) promised me they could give me a similar structure with more of the feel of A&S. They did.

As for brands, I have not one "designer" brand in my wardrobe. Frankly I have a low opinion of L.V. and most businesses that plaster their names and/or logos all over their products. As for Savile Row tailors, I doubt 1 in 50 men (women too) are familiar with even the largest houses. Using one isn't necessarily going to impress others. Must have been about 15 years ago but I recall one woman asking me who "made" my coat. Her response was a gush of "My husband OOONLY wears ARMAAANI." It was amusing, but I said nothing.

I did. More than once in my 40 years.

I'll add that I chose tailors that made trips to the US. I was often in England but their transatlantic travel picked up the pace. It was especially important to me as I live on the West Coast.

My DJ (Tom Brown, Eton. Disclaimer : I did not go to school there), from 1984 or 1985, cost me 800 or 850 GBP. I still have the bill somewhere. I think Huntsman was around the thousand-pound mark then, for a lounge suit, mind you.
I do not have any "designer" clothes, either. For one thing, I have to be price-conscious. I still feel SR can be worth the money if you go for durable cloths

 

[dieworkwear]

I think SR prices are outpacing wage growth for many middle-class consumers, and have been for years. I believe many tailoring houses and shoemaking firms raise prices about 2-3% per year, which for many people, is more than their wage growth, even if things are supposed to keep up with inflation. I imagine this price hike is just fine if you're in the upper class, as your income probably keeps up.

My impression is that we're seeing the end of an era where a certain section of consumers can afford custom tailored clothing. That era, starting around the immediate post-war period, is when many tailoring houses saw their customer base expand to include middle-class customers. IIRC, Nothing But the Best by Thomas Girtin (a wonderful book about British craft, if someone hasn't already ready it) touches on this period.

I suspect this is heavily driven by real estate costs. Simon Cundy at Henry Poole once told me what he pays in rent. I can't remember the number but I remember being astounded. Someone at one of the big West End shoemaking firms (not Nicholas) also once told me what their firm pays in rent, and it was similarly amazing. Hence why we're seeing so many firms introduce offshore bespoke programs and ready-to-wear lines. They're trying to scale and still bring in middle-class customers.

For middle-class consumers, I think the shift is all towards Hong Kong and Italy, where things are still relatively affordable. The problem is that many of these firms don't travel to the United States, and I'm not sure if the community of enthusiasts in the US is growing for this sort of stuff. I think the online community of enthusiasts is shrinking and the loss in numbers is not being replaced with new blood. The space for tailored clothing is declining and you have to be intentional about wearing a tailored jacket (willing to stand out). I also think you have to make this stuff look modern nowadays to attract younger people, but the CM crowd is cantankerous, crotchety, and sometimes unwelcoming to newbies.

 

[Frog in Suit]

I think SR prices are outpacing wage growth for many middle-class consumers, and have been for years. I believe many tailoring houses and shoemaking firms raise prices about 2-3% per year, which for many people, is more than their wage growth, even if things are supposed to keep up with inflation. I imagine this price hike is just fine if you're in the upper class, as your income probably keeps up.

My impression is that we're seeing the end of an era where a certain section of consumers can afford custom tailored clothing. That era, starting around the immediate post-war period, is when many tailoring houses saw their customer base expand to include middle-class customers. IIRC, Nothing But the Best by Thomas Girtin (a wonderful book about British craft, if someone hasn't already ready it) touches on this period.

I suspect this is heavily driven by real estate costs. Simon Cundy at Henry Poole once told me what he pays in rent. I can't remember the number but I remember being astounded. Someone at one of the big West End shoemaking firms (not Nicholas) also once told me what their firm pays in rent, and it was similarly amazing. Hence why we're seeing so many firms introduce offshore bespoke programs and ready-to-wear lines. They're trying to scale and still bring in middle-class customers.

For middle-class consumers, I think the shift is all towards Hong Kong and Italy, where things are still relatively affordable. The problem is that many of these firms don't travel to the United States, and I'm not sure if the community of enthusiasts in the US is growing for this sort of stuff. I think the online community of enthusiasts is shrinking and the loss in numbers is not being replaced with new blood. The space for tailored clothing is declining and you have to be intentional about wearing a tailored jacket (willing to stand out). I also think you have to make this stuff look modern nowadays to attract younger people, but the CM crowd is cantankerous, crotchety, and sometimes unwelcoming to newbies.

"CM"? Sorry; it is probably obvious but I don't get it.
I agree with what you write. The great advantage of age is that I do not try to look modern, anything but, in fact.
Unless Covid + Brexit lead to a decrease in Mayfair rents (fat chance of that happening, I'm afraid), SR tailors may have to group together like the ones on George Street, up near Hanover Square. In their old shop, Meyer and Mortimer cohabited with Sean O'Flynn and a couple of other tailors (Malcolm Plews, others as well). Sharing the rent should help keep the prices lower.

 

[dieworkwear]

"CM"? Sorry; it is probably obvious but I don't get it.
I agree with what you write. The great advantage of age is that I do not try to look modern, anything but, in fact.
Unless Covid + Brexit lead to a decrease in Mayfair rents (fat chance of that happening, I'm afraid), SR tailors may have to group together like the ones on George Street, up near Hanover Square. In their old shop, Meyer and Mortimer cohabited with Sean O'Flynn and a couple of other tailors (Malcolm Plews, others as well). Sharing the rent should help keep the prices lower.

CM stands for Classic Menswear, which is this side of the forum. I'm not really talking about just this forum, but the general online community through which some people may encounter this type of look. I think fifteen years ago, there was more energy and excitement about this stuff, fueled by a combination of things -- Mad Men, a rich ecosystem of online media (not least of which included street style sites), and forums.

I've heard rumors that some of the big bespoke tailoring houses have talked about moving off the Row, but supposedly (and this is just rumors) no one trusts each other enough to do it. So much has been made of the name, many people still want that Savile Row address.

In the last couple of years, some lastmakers from the big three West End shoemaking firms have broken off and gone independent. Their online presentation is modest, often nothing more than a photo of the carving a last. They don't attract nearly as many customers as any of big names alone. Each of the indies is making maybe a dozen or two dozen pairs of shoes as year; any one of the big bespoke houses is doing hundreds. But the indies attract discerning enthusiasts who care little about name and only of quality. Prices are much lower through indies -- Lobb St. James is stretching into $7k or $8k for a pair of shoes, Templeman, a former Lobb lastmaker, is about half that. This is possible because of London's rich network of outworkers. I think we may see some of that happening in the future with bespoke tailoring houses -- cutters striking it out on their own as independents and then using the outworker network for coatmaking and trousermaking. But still, if they travel, they have to find enough customers in any given city to justify returning for three fittings, which I think is a questionable prospect in a few years.

 

[Frog in Suit]

CM stands for Classic Menswear, which is this side of the forum. I'm not really talking about just this forum, but the general online community through which some people may encounter this type of look. I think fifteen years ago, there was more energy and excitement about this stuff, fueled by a combination of things -- Mad Men, a rich ecosystem of online media (not least of which included street style sites), and forums.

I've heard rumors that some of the big bespoke tailoring houses have talked about moving off the Row, but supposedly (and this is just rumors) no one trusts each other enough to do it. So much has been made of the name, many people still want that Savile Row address.

In the last couple of years, some lastmakers from the big three West End shoemaking firms have broken off and gone independent. Their online presentation is modest, often nothing more than a photo of the carving a last. They don't attract nearly as many customers as any of big names alone. Each of the indies is making maybe a dozen or two dozen pairs of shoes as year; any one of the big bespoke houses is doing hundreds. But the indies attract discerning enthusiasts who care little about name and only of quality. Prices are much lower through indies -- Lobb St. James is stretching into $7k or $8k for a pair of shoes, Templeman, a former Lobb lastmaker, is about half that. This is possible because of London's rich network of outworkers. I think we may see some of that happening in the future with bespoke tailoring houses -- cutters striking it out on their own as independents and then using the outworker network for coatmaking and trousermaking. But still, if they travel, they have to find enough customers in any given city to justify returning for three fittings, which I think is a questionable prospect in a few years.

Thank you for the explanation. I should have guessed. Must be getting senile.
Adding to what you wrote about shoemakers, it appears Foster & Son / Henry Maxwell (they appear to emphasize the latter more these days) have moved from Jermyn Street to a side street in Islington. I presume this was caused by a combination of St James's rents and Covid. I wonder what became of Emiko Matsuda. Her name does not appear on the Foster website. Perhaps she went independent.

 

[Texasmade]

Thank you for the explanation. I should have guessed. Must be getting senile.
Adding to what you wrote about shoemakers, it appears Foster & Son / Henry Maxwell (they appear to emphasize the latter more these days) have moved from Jermyn Street to a side street in Islington. I presume this was caused by a combination of St James's rents and Covid. I wonder what became of Emiko Matsuda. Her name does not appear on the Foster website. Perhaps she went independent.

She went independent. You can find her work on instagram.

 

[Frog in Suit]

She went independent. You can find her work on instagram.

Thank you for the information. I shall have to ask my wife to trace her, as I am not on any social network or whatever the damn things are called.

 

[Texasmade]

Thank you for the information. I shall have to ask my wife to trace her, as I am not on any social network or whatever the damn things are called.

emiko matsuda (@emiko.matsuda) • Instagram photos and videos

15K Followers, 122 Following, 276 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from emiko matsuda (@emiko.matsuda)

www.instagram.com

 

[DaAlSh]

richard anderson MTM for 3500 bucks was pretty good but pandemic delayed things. now I have a slightly too tight suit but its wearable. now that I have learned more I am inclined to give other tailors a try but last I saw of my wife's bespoke jacket it looked pretty good. hopeful I will get soon (this year).

Interesting - I didn't know RA did MTM. Sadly I've seen a fair few poor fits from there, but this might be the reason why. Certainly their bespoke I find far too rich for the result - Kent Haste represents (to me) far better value.