First Savile Row bespoke

[MontyChapman]

After countless hours of scrolling, drooling and admiring Savile Row garments and also after countless attempts in trying to buy them secondhand, the conclusion reached is that I will be starting to save towards buying my first Savile Row bespoke suit and jacket.

I’m quite young but I’ve always been a bit of a fogey so I’ve been wearing suits over the modern day hoody that my generation prefer wearing. I always found great comfort and reassurance when wearing a simple shirt, tie and suit.

At the moment, my wardrobe consists of two main suits. One old Gieves bespoke suit I got really cheap that was tailored for a Royal Navy captain in the 1970s. I only bought it because I liked Gieves from my historical interest but I don’t really like the feel. It’s quite structured, high arm holes and padded shoulders. Makes me look like a 60s salesman (nothing bad but it’s just not my jive).

I have a more recent suit I got from Leonard Jay on sale that I bought this year as a gift for myself. I really like the look and feel. It’s an off the rack shop here in London but their suit designs fit me perfectly. If Leonard Jay suits had bigger lapels like those scrumptious Anderson Sheppard bespokes, I would’ve bought their entire collection. Sadly, their look is more of a skinny and thin-lapelled modern appearance.

The big question is who do I go with? I’ve been drawn to Huntsman, Anderson and Sheppard and Henry Poole lately. I’m wondering who would be the best suit maker to go for?

I’m intending to commission a very sober outfit that I would expect to wear for a lifetime. Something like a charcoal grey or navy suit that I can wear both casually and formally. Nothing ostentatious. Something comfortable. Something respectable. A suit that I could go to sleep with (in terms of comfort?), maybe not that much but something quite comfy.

I look forward to reading your replies!

P.S. Is it worth trying to buy a secondhand Savile Row and having them altered by a tailor? Are there any success stories?

 

[aristoi bcn]

The three houses you mention are quite different from each other and if you are hesitating between them I would say that you are not yet ready to fully enjoy the experience of having a suit made in the row. Not an issue if you had unlimited resources but I read that this is not the case.

My advice would be that you hold on for a while. Read a bit more what are the differences between an A&S suit, a Poole suit and a Huntsman suit. Once you know the nuances and you can distinguish one from each other you might go forward. By then you will maybe have already realized that you'd rather go to a smaller house where you can enjoy the bespoke process at a lower price tag because you value more the suit than its tag. Or maybe not and you decide to go to one of the big houses, but at least you will go knowing what are you paying for. My feeling is that you still don't know.

 

[dieworkwear]

I used A&S and was not happy with the coat. Also not into the new stuff I've seen from them (by new stuff, I mean coats produced in the last thirty years).

I've heard good things about Henry Poole's current tailoring.

Huntsman makes a very structured coat and they are very expensive, even for Savile Row. If price is a concern for you, you may want to look at Richard Anderson, who used to be a cutter at Huntsman.

 

[RSS]

I used A&S and was not happy with the coat. Also not into the new stuff I've seen from them (by new stuff, I mean coats produced in the last thirty years).

Huntsman makes a very structured coat and they are very expensive, even for Savile Row. If price is a concern for you, you may want to look at Richard Anderson, who used to be a cutter at Huntsman.

I used A&S from the 70's until the early 90's. I went back for a couple of pieces in the middle 00's and had an experience similar to you. I've even heard other SR tailors say the talent is not there any more. Admittedly that was a few years back now.

I went to Huntsman in the middle 90's (I wanted more structure after all that A&S) and was quite happy. When Richard Anderson and Brian Lishak left Huntsman, I went with them. They gave me what I wanted. I imagine Richard still could. But at this point I have everything I'll ever need.

 

[comrade]

I used A&S and was not happy with the coat. Also not into the new stuff I've seen from them (by new stuff, I mean coats produced in the last thirty years)

.
So where does one go for an approximation of the "old" A &S cut?
Steed? Anyone else?

 

[MontyChapman]

I used A&S and was not happy with the coat. Also not into the new stuff I've seen from them (by new stuff, I mean coats produced in the last thirty years).

I've heard good things about Henry Poole's current tailoring.

Huntsman makes a very structured coat and they are very expensive, even for Savile Row. If price is a concern for you, you may want to look at Richard Anderson, who used to be a cutter at Huntsman.

My dream was to have an A&S overcoat because I thought their drapery look meant that it would hug any suit underneath. Who would be a good A&S-style coat maker?

In regards to the other gent's assumption of my Savile Row knowledge, indeed, it is scant but from what I have learnt so far, Huntsman and A&S are opposites. Huntsman is quite structured and military-like, whilst A&S is the traditional English drapery look. I believe Poole is in the middle from what I have read on older forum posts.

I actually just bought myself two Huntsman bespoke garments at a bargain price and one proper dinner jacket at an appropriate price. One is a dinner jacket made in 1996 and the other is a Grey birdseye suit tailored in 1987. I paid properly for a really nice D-B Huntsman dinner jacket tailored in 1988. Would these garments be the work of Richard Anderson?

My buying record might say I'm turned towards Huntsman but they seem to go cheaper on the secondhand market than an A&S or Poole, regardless of age. I think some of their black labelled ones were made off-the-rack, so I've only bought ones with the cloth ticket sewn with the client's name on the inside pocket.

 

[MontyChapman]

I used A&S from the 70's until the early 90's. I went back for a couple of pieces in the middle 00's and had an experience similar to you. I've even heard other SR tailors say the talent is not there any more. Admittedly that was a few years back now.

I went to Huntsman in the middle 90's (I wanted more structure after all that A&S) and was quite happy. When Richard Anderson and Brian Lishak left Huntsman, I went with them. They gave me what I wanted. I imagine Richard still could. But at this point I have everything I'll ever need.

Would you say A&S was still in its prime from the 70s to the 90s? I'd like to pinpoint when they started going downhill?

 

[dieworkwear]

My dream was to have an A&S overcoat because I thought their drapery look meant that it would hug any suit underneath. Who would be a good A&S-style coat maker?

In regards to the other gent's assumption of my Savile Row knowledge, indeed, it is scant but from what I have learnt so far, Huntsman and A&S are opposites. Huntsman is quite structured and military-like, whilst A&S is the traditional English drapery look. I believe Poole is in the middle from what I have read on older forum posts.

I actually just bought myself two Huntsman bespoke garments at a bargain price and one proper dinner jacket at an appropriate price. One is a dinner jacket made in 1996 and the other is a Grey birdseye suit tailored in 1987. I paid properly for a really nice D-B Huntsman dinner jacket tailored in 1988. Would these garments be the work of Richard Anderson?

My buying record might say I'm turned towards Huntsman but they seem to go cheaper on the secondhand market than an A&S or Poole, regardless of age. I think some of their black labelled ones were made off-the-rack, so I've only bought ones with the cloth ticket sewn with the client's name on the inside pocket.

Would you say A&S was still in its prime from the 70s to the 90s? I'd like to pinpoint when they started going downhill?

A very contentious history, and sometimes colored by the people who tell it. I heard the history from one of my cutters, Edwin Deboise, who now runs Steed. In the 90s, he and Tom Mahon left to co-found Steed after working at A&S. Since A&S was then quickly left without a cutter, Tom Mahon drafted a coat pattern for them, which they turned into a block pattern. John Hitchcock, at the time then the trouser cutter, then became the head cutter. Some of those early Hitchcock coats had problems. Although I liked some of the coats he made later, such a corduroy double-breasted for Simon Crompton.

However, this forum is littered with not-so-great examples of A&S tailoring. Many years ago, a former member here named Manton commissioned a coat and it didn't turn out very well. The sleeves were screwed up and there was no more cloth left, so he couldn't fix it. The coat balance was also off. Here is a photo of Manton's coat. His original is on the left. A corrected Photoshop version is on the right.

As you can see, the original coat is cut in such a way that the coat runs away from the body as it goes towards the hem. A proper coat should have a pattern that's "trued," such that it falls straight up and down. This is easier to see on patterns because you can see the line running up and down (correct), not diagonal (wrong)

The problem is very obvious here:

This problem also shows up in solid fabrics, such as this coat on Simon. It's harder to see because there's no pattern, but you can see the issue if you look closely at the grain of the coat.

My coat didn't have the balance issue, but it had a sleeve pitch issue, and I was disappointed by how my cutter judged how to correct it at the third fitting. We both noticed that not enough sleeve cuff was showing underneath my coat sleeve. He decided that the correct solution was to bring up the sleeve. But the issue was actually the sleeve pitch. If you push your arms forward a little, you can see this on your own coats. When the sleeve pitch is off, you will look like you're missing shirt cuff when viewing the coat from the front, but you will notice it's actually a sleeve pitch issue when viewing it from the side.

But this is a minor issue. IMO, the greater issue is that modern A&S doesn't have the same rounded silhouette or drapey look.

Here are some iconic photos of "old A&S," by which I mean pre-2000. There are two things that define this look: the soft, sloping shoulders and the very rounded, full chest. For me, this is the golden age of A&S.

Daniel Day Lewis' posture here exaggerates this effect but you can see how round everything here looks. Very soft, drapey, and rounded.

Modern A&S doesn't look like this (although modern A&S also made DDL's coat above, so I don't really know what's happening behind the scenes). Here are some examples of modern A&S coats.

I would post more photos, but they are of people who sent me images privately, and I don't have their permission to share their images online. Their commissions are the most indicative.

Still, in the photos above, you can see a few changes. First, the chest isn't as full, drapey, or rounded. The shoulders are not as soft and sloping. The quarters are more closed. Things look more angular. They no longer have those soft, survey lines everywhere. The coats look boxy, and sometimes they have odd proportions.

I can say that the team there is very nice and they are excellent at customer service. I'm currently talking to the Managing Director to see if I can get my coat fixed. They will be in San Francisco next spring, and they've kindly said that I can bring it to them so they can have a look. Hopefully, I can get them to fix it. One of my friends showed a photo of his coat to Anda, the current owner of the business, and she kindly said that they can remake it. So perhaps things will turn alright in the end. But from having seen so many modern A&S coats nowadays, I can say that the new stuff doesn't have the old A&S flavor (say, pre 2000).

If you want that old A&S look, there are two notable A&S expats: Edwin Deboise, who now runs Steed, and Tom Mahon, who works as the head cutter at Redmayne. Just as important as who cuts your coat is also who makes the garment. It's a delicate balance, as things can change when one member of the team falls out. Things are often moving around on Savile Row, so if you think you want to use someone, try to find a modern coat from that company on a person who has a similar build as you. That's the best way to approximate what you might get in the end.

The other associated cutter is Steven Hitchcock, who cuts a slightly leaner chest but can make things drapey upon request. I don't believe he worked as a cutter at A&S, but he knows that cut and is the son of John Hitchcock, the former cutter and now recently retired.

 

[RSS]

Would you say A&S was still in its prime from the 70s to the 90s? I'd like to pinpoint when they started going downhill?

When Colin Harvey was still there it was quite good. When he departed (and subsequently died) I began to lose faith.

 

[othertravel]

I'm surprised more people aren't recommending Brioni. Based on PS' review, it's comparable in price to the names already mentioned, and apparently very well done.

 

[Dadacantona]

A very contentious history, and sometimes colored by the people who tell it. I heard the history from one of my cutters, Edwin Deboise, who now runs Steed. In the 90s, he and Tom Mahon left to co-found Steed after working at A&S. Since A&S was then quickly left without a cutter, Tom Mahon drafted a coat pattern for them, which they turned into a block pattern. John Hitchcock, at the time then the trouser cutter, then became the head cutter. Some of those early Hitchcock coats had problems. Although I liked some of the coats he made later, such a corduroy double-breasted for Simon Crompton.

However, this forum is littered with not-so-great examples of A&S tailoring. Many years ago, a former member here named Manton commissioned a coat and it didn't turn out very well. The sleeves were screwed up and there was no more cloth left, so he couldn't fix it. The coat balance was also off. Here is a photo of Manton's coat. His original is on the left. A corrected Photoshop version is on the right.

As you can see, the original coat is cut in such a way that the coat runs away from the body as it goes towards the hem. A proper coat should have a pattern that's "trued," such that it falls straight up and down. This is easier to see on patterns because you can see the line running up and down (correct), not diagonal (wrong)


View attachment 1724386



The problem is very obvious here:



View attachment 1724391


This problem also shows up in solid fabrics, such as this coat on Simon. It's harder to see because there's no pattern, but you can see the issue if you look closely at the grain of the coat.


View attachment 1724389



My coat didn't have the balance issue, but it had a sleeve pitch issue, and I was disappointed by how my cutter judged how to correct it at the third fitting. We both noticed that not enough sleeve cuff was showing underneath my coat sleeve. He decided that the correct solution was to bring up the sleeve. But the issue was actually the sleeve pitch. If you push your arms forward a little, you can see this on your own coats. When the sleeve pitch is off, you will look like you're missing shirt cuff when viewing the coat from the front, but you will notice it's actually a sleeve pitch issue when viewing it from the side.

But this is a minor issue. IMO, the greater issue is that modern A&S doesn't have the same rounded silhouette or drapey look.

Here are some iconic photos of "old A&S," by which I mean pre-2000. There are two things that define this look: the soft, sloping shoulders and the very rounded, full chest. For me, this is the golden age of A&S.



View attachment 1724396 View attachment 1724395 View attachment 1724398 View attachment 1724402 View attachment 1724403


Daniel Day Lewis' posture here exaggerates this effect but you can see how round everything here looks. Very soft, drapey, and rounded.

View attachment 1724405



Modern A&S doesn't look like this (although modern A&S also made DDL's coat above, so I don't really know what's happening behind the scenes). Here are some examples of modern A&S coats.



View attachment 1724409 View attachment 1724410 View attachment 1724411 View attachment 1724412


I would post more photos, but they are of people who sent me images privately, and I don't have their permission to share their images online. Their commissions are the most indicative.

Still, in the photos above, you can see a few changes. First, the chest isn't as full, drapey, or rounded. The shoulders are not as soft and sloping. The quarters are more closed. Things look more angular. They no longer have those soft, survey lines everywhere. The coats look boxy, and sometimes they have odd proportions.

I can say that the team there is very nice and they are excellent at customer service. I'm currently talking to the Managing Director to see if I can get my coat fixed. They will be in San Francisco next spring, and they've kindly said that I can bring it to them so they can have a look. Hopefully, I can get them to fix it. One of my friends showed a photo of his coat to Anda, the current owner of the business, and she kindly said that they can remake it. So perhaps things will turn alright in the end. But from having seen so many modern A&S coats nowadays, I can say that the new stuff doesn't have the old A&S flavor (say, pre 2000).

If you want that old A&S look, there are two notable A&S expats: Edwin Deboise, who now runs Steed, and Tom Mahon, who works as the head cutter at Redmayne. Just as important as who cuts your coat is also who makes the garment. It's a delicate balance, as things can change when one member of the team falls out. Things are often moving around on Savile Row, so if you think you want to use someone, try to find a modern coat from that company on a person who has a similar build as you. That's the best way to approximate what you might get in the end.

The other associated cutter is Steven Hitchcock, who cuts a slightly leaner chest but can make things drapey upon request. I don't believe he worked as a cutter at A&S, but he knows that cut and is the son of John Hitchcock, the former cutter and now recently retired.

I have also wondered what’s happening at A&S considering all the Daniel Day Lewis jackets in Phantom Thread look like proper, traditional A&S.

Is it that they’re actively moving away from the drape cut but made DDL’s coats in their traditional style to be period accurate? That recent Daniel Craig pink dinner jacket was about as far from an A&S cut as it’s possible to imagine.

 

[dieworkwear]

I'm surprised more people aren't recommending Brioni. Based on PS' review, it's comparable in price to the names already mentioned, and apparently very well done.

Personally not into the jacket or process

 

[MontyChapman]

I have also wondered what’s happening at A&S considering all the Daniel Day Lewis jackets in Phantom Thread look like proper, traditional A&S.

Is it that they’re actively moving away from the drape cut but made DDL’s coats in their traditional style to be period accurate? That recent Daniel Craig pink dinner jacket was about as far from an A&S cut as it’s possible to imagine.

I read a featured article on A&S' work for DDL. Apparently, all of his garments were meant to mirror the 1950s, so A&S tried to source thicker cloth that they would've used back then. I recall that his signature double-breasted jacket pictured above is what A&S would use for a standard wool overcoat commission these days. Though, I'm not sure if cloth weight is positively correlated to its workmanship? I would guess that they spent a lot of time really perfecting DDL's jacket as it is the ultimate promo of their work to be in a brilliant movie!

 

[aristoi bcn]

They promoted rather more the infamous pink velvet DB for Daniel Craig.

They have increasingly followed the marketing strategy put in place by Cleverley in the social media which focuses more in who wear their garments than how their are made.

 

[RSS]

They have increasingly followed the marketing strategy put in place by Cleverley in the social media which focuses more in who wear their garments than how their are made.

I recall when Hitchcock chastised me for supposedly telling someone s/he could photograph my clothing in progress. I haven't a clue who that would have been, don't recall doing it. But when you are on Style Forum or Ask Andy ... anything can and often does happen. Hitchcock informed me that A&S was all about discretion and accommodating my request could RUIN them. I informed him I hadn't a clue what he was talking about, but he never apologized. He let me know he wasn't happy about my references to them on the Internet. Sadly, that brought them customers after the decline had begun.

After that incident, I never returned. Nothing lost. By that time, I wasn't happy with the results.

I was surprised when John rose to the level he did. My memory of him from earlier days never saw him in that position. Halsey, I understood. John just didn't have the same sense of style.