engagement rings - buy loose diamond or from "reputable" store

[Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Jeezus, you are conflating so many points I wonder if you even know what you're arguing anymore.

Forget Cartier and Tiffany. That same "private jeweler" will have diamonds and rings across a spectrum of prices. If you pay that jeweler more, you will get more.

But it like anything else. One place can have an item for 100 dollars, but another place can have the exact same item for 50 dollars. So your ring which cost let's say 30K at Tiffany, could be 15K at a private jeweler.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

But it like anything else. One place can have an item for 100 dollars, but another place can have the exact same item for 50 dollars. So your ring which cost let's say 30K at Tiffany, could be 15K at a private jeweler.

Yes, and that "private jeweler" could have a ring that costs $30k, which would have cost $60k at Tiffany, and which is nicer than the $15k ring he's selling. You seem to be running in circles trying to prove to yourself that no $30k engagement ring could be worth $30k.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Yes, and that "private jeweler" could have a ring that costs $30k, which would have cost $60k at Tiffany, and which is nicer than the $15k ring he's selling. You seem to be running in circles trying to prove to yourself that no $30k engagement ring could be worth $30k.

Well you won't find it at Tiffany and Cartier that's for damn sure.

 

[tj100]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Well you won't find it at Tiffany and Cartier that's for damn sure.

It's actually interesting (as someone who has relatively recently done the homework). The price 'premium' for Tiffany, Winston, and Cartier scales much more slowly than the price of a diamond. So, if you're buying something for $5,000 at Tiffany, you're probably paying double what you might at Blue Nile (i.e. $2,500 "too much"). On a $25,000 ring, you're probably getting something in the neighborhood of a $20,000 - $22,500 blue nile ring. The premium stays pretty flat as prices rise, so the 'value' argument begins to go away.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by tj100

It's actually interesting (as someone who has relatively recently done the homework). The price 'premium' for Tiffany, Winston, and Cartier scales much more slowly than the price of a diamond. So, if you're buying something for $5,000 at Tiffany, you're probably paying double what you might at Blue Nile (i.e. $2,500 "too much"). On a $25,000 ring, you're probably getting something in the neighborhood of a $20,000 - $22,500 blue nile ring. The premium stays pretty flat as prices rise, so the 'value' argument begins to go away.

Are you sure about this? When I was diamond/ring shopping three years ago, this did not seem to be the case. I forget the exact price, but a 2ct. D/VVS2 round brilliant diamond at Tiffany was $70-80k--about twice as much as from other sources.

 

[tj100]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Are you sure about this? When I was diamond/ring shopping three years ago, this did not seem to be the case. I forget the exact price, but a 2ct. D/VVS2 round brilliant diamond at Tiffany was $70-80k--about twice as much as from other sources.

Positive. I spent quite a long time reviewing their inventory sheets (new ones come out Monday nights!), and would cross check against Blue Nile regularly. There are a few really interesting things about their pricing. First, is that aside from New York, most of their stores have very few rings in stock (typically only one or two in each size category). As a result, you might be blown away on price, because the one 2ct ring they have in stock is a D VVS1, and it's expensive, and until they think you're serious, they're not going to bring in stock from another store for you to see. Once they do think you're serious, they'll bring in whatever you want.

The other thing is that there's more art than science to there pricing. You can only guess prices to within about 25% - some 'identical' stones will vary widely in price for a number of reasons. If you get a good 'value' from T&C, at the $30K+ level, you won't pay much premium over blue nile. Just looking at BN right now, the closest stones they have to what I bought my wife are all more than I paid.

 

[rnoldh]

Foo is right on the above points.

First thing is that Blue Nile has been raising their prices ( compared to others ) as they have gotten bigger.

Second thing is that scalability or not, Tiffany, Cartier, HW, and similar are never just a little higher than a well researched buy from a private dealer, but are a lot higher.

I am not in the business, but fool around with diamonds and gold a bit. Here is an example of a favor I did for a friend. ( post # 120)

Comparing apples to apples. For a GIA or AGS XXX 3 carat or bigger stone of let us say at least G color, VS2 clarity, there is no way that the famous name stores would be close at all to the price of certain little known private brokers.

The above opinion of course is in no way a comment on the added value of buying from a famous name store, which is important to many people. I think people are different and have different motives and goals and there is a reason that Cartier thrives while their are many private brokers that do extremely well too.

Foo, I seem to recall that you did all your research and due diligence with your wife in famous stores. And then you bought a GIA or AGS stone from a broker. Is this true? As I said in my linked post, I bet not 1 woman in a 100 could tell your wife's ring from a Cartier.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by rnoldh

Foo is right on the above points.

First thing is that Blue Nile has been raising their prices ( compared to others ) as they have gotten bigger.

Second thing is that scalability or not, Tiffany, Cartier, HW, and similar are never just a little higher than a well researched buy from a private dealer, but are a lot higher.

I am not in the business, but fool around with diamonds and gold a bit. Here is an example of a favor I did for a friend. ( post # 120)

Comparing apples to apples. For a GIA or AGS XXX 3 carat or bigger stone of let us say at least G color, VS2 clarity, there is no way that the famous name stores would be close at all to the price of certain little known private brokers.

The above opinion of course is in no way a comment on the added value of buying from a famous name store, which is important to many people. I think people are different and have different motives and goals and there is a reason that Cartier thrives while their are many private brokers that do extremely well too.

Foo, I seem to recall that you did all your research and due diligence with your wife in famous stores. And then you bought a GIA or AGS stone from a broker. Is this true? As I said in my linked post, I bet not 1 woman in a 100 could tell your wife's ring from a Cartier.

I just don't see any value that comes from buying your way overpriced diamond at a name brand store. If I could get the same exact diamond for half price through a private broker, I would prefer to the do that. The same goes for anything else. Find the best product within your budget for the cheapest you can find it. Not overpay, because you want the pretty little box that comes with it.

 

[AMIdiamonds]

As a private broker, I can definitely say that the bigger names are going to charge you a lot more just because of the name itself. I own a small jewelry store located in Phoenix, AZ and have been a wholesale diamond dealer for the past 27 years. I would gladly help with your purchase of a stone and truly give you the best stone for the best price. Please message me via the forums or by my email of [email protected] if you are interested.

Thank you.

 

[rnoldh]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

I just don't see any value that comes from buying your way overpriced diamond at a name brand store. If I could get the same exact diamond for half price through a private broker, I would prefer to the do that. The same goes for anything else. Find the best product within your budget for the cheapest you can find it. Not overpay, because you want the pretty little box that comes with it.

First of all, it is not my overpriced diamonds at famous stores ( I only wish ).

Second, I think you are missing something. IT IS NOT ONLY PRICE THAT COUNTS TO SOME!

I myself would buy through the private broker route.

Some can well afford and feel secure and good from buying from Cartier. Is there something wrong with that?

Sort of like food and restaurants in a sense. Some can afford and enjoy $200 per person meals at The French Laundry. Others might say that they can get the same quality of food ingredients, the recipes and cook it at home for $25 per person. It might taste almost exactly the same but there is a difference.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by rnoldh

First of all, it is not my overpriced diamonds at famous stores ( I only wish ).

Second, I think you are missing something. IT IS NOT ONLY PRICE THAT COUNTS TO SOME!

I myself would buy through the private broker route.

Some can well afford and feel secure and good from buying from Cartier. Is there something wrong with that?

Sort of like food and restaurants in a sense. Some can afford and enjoy $200 per person meals at The French Laundry. Others might say that they can get the same quality of food ingredients, the recipes and cook it at home for $25 per person. It might taste almost exactly the same but there is a difference.

So give me the reasons why beyond the price, why someone who want to overpay for their diamind, when they could get the same thing for half across the street. What are these other reasons that count?

 

[Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by rnoldh

First of all, it is not my overpriced diamonds at famous stores ( I only wish ).

Second, I think you are missing something. IT IS NOT ONLY PRICE THAT COUNTS TO SOME!

I myself would buy through the private broker route.

Some can well afford and feel secure and good from buying from Cartier. Is there something wrong with that?

Sort of like food and restaurants in a sense. Some can afford and enjoy $200 per person meals at The French Laundry. Others might say that they can get the same quality of food ingredients, the recipes and cook it at home for $25 per person. It might taste almost exactly the same but there is a difference.

So give me the reasons why beyond the price. Why would someone intentionally want to overpay for their diamind, when they could get the same thing for half price across the street. What are these other reasons that count?

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by rnoldh

Foo, I seem to recall that you did all your research and due diligence with your wife in famous stores. And then you bought a GIA or AGS stone from a broker. Is this true? As I said in my linked post, I bet not 1 woman in a 100 could tell your wife's ring from a Cartier.

My wife didn't take part--she wanted to be surprised. Her only request was not to pick a heart or marquis shaped diamond, which I never would have anyway.

Most of my big shop diligence was aimed at assessing craftmanship. My conclusion was that the standard production Tiffany settings are garbage (the exotic one-off stuff is a different story). While, the rings at Cartier, Winston, Garrard, and Van Cleef are markedly superior, I discoverd that none do their own pave work (Tiffany does their own, but it sucks). Rather, they each use independent jewelers in New York. Apparently, the best pave is done in the States, not Europe. So, I ultimately ignored the big names, and went directly to the best pave specialist I could find in the Diamond District.

I believe only Tiffany cuts its own stones (only as of recently, nonetheless), and I'm not sure to what advantage. So, there is absolutely no magic behind a diamond laser-etched with a fancy name.

Funny you mention Cartier. I visited their Fifth Avenue store to ask if they'd set a customer-supplied diamond. They were impressed enough with our stone that they consulted with Paris to see if they'd make an exception to their rule--and it's not like I brought in the Hope diamond or anything, either. It's just that the people who work at such places are not necessarily aware that individual consumers can get their hands on diamonds as nice as what they sell.

 

[rnoldh]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

So give me the reasons why beyond the price. Why would someone intentionally want to overpay for their diamind, when they could get the same thing for half price across the street. What are these other reasons that count?

See Foo's post below.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

My wife didn't take part--she wanted to be surprised. Her only request was not to pick a heart or marquis shaped diamond, which I never would have anyway.

Most of my big shop diligence was aimed at assessing craftmanship. My conclusion was that the standard production Tiffany settings are garbage (the exotic one-off stuff is a different story). While, the rings at Cartier, Winston, Garrard, and Van Cleef are markedly superior, I discoverd that none do their own pave work (Tiffany does their own, but it sucks). Rather, they each use independent jewelers in New York. Apparently, the best pave is done in the States, not Europe. So, I ultimately ignored the big names, and went directly to the best pave specialist I could find in the Diamond District.

I believe only Tiffany cuts its own stones (only as of recently, nonetheless), and I'm not sure to what advantage. So, there is absolutely no magic behind a diamond laser-etched with a fancy name.

Funny you mention Cartier. I visited their Fifth Avenue store to ask if they'd set a customer-supplied diamond. They were impressed enough with our stone that they consulted with Paris to see if they'd make an exception to their rule--and it's not like I brought in the Hope diamond or anything, either. It's just that the people who work at such places are not necessarily aware that individual consumers can get their hands on diamonds as nice as what they sell.

While Foo is a bit obsessive ( and I say that as a compliment ), he has laid out the reasons for going the due diligence - broker route above.

As to buying the famous name at a higher price that is more subjective. But I feel that it is like pissing in the wind, discussing this with you.

Yes, one would certainly save a decent amount from buying from a broker ( and knowing what they are doing ). But to some, price doesn't matter, and Cartier and Hermes are not about to go out of business!

I think Foo, who could have afforded Tiffany ( and maybe Cartier, but this is for him to know ), made a wise researched choice, as I would have. Some people in his Aldens, choose differently.

I have a feeling that if you could afford Tiffany and Cartier your perspective might change. I'm not saying that you should buy there, but that you might have a different perspective. Anyway, enough time on this. I'm not going to reply anymore with regards to Cartier pricing, added value, etc.

If someone like Foo or Z has an intelligent post to make about diamonds, please continue. This has turned into an interesting thread.

 

[SField]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

My wife didn't take part--she wanted to be surprised. Her only request was not to pick a heart or marquis shaped diamond, which I never would have anyway.

Most of my big shop diligence was aimed at assessing craftmanship. My conclusion was that the standard production Tiffany settings are garbage (the exotic one-off stuff is a different story). While, the rings at Cartier, Winston, Garrard, and Van Cleef are markedly superior, I discoverd that none do their own pave work (Tiffany does their own, but it sucks). Rather, they each use independent jewelers in New York. Apparently, the best pave is done in the States, not Europe. So, I ultimately ignored the big names, and went directly to the best pave specialist I could find in the Diamond District.

I believe only Tiffany cuts its own stones (only as of recently, nonetheless), and I'm not sure to what advantage. So, there is absolutely no magic behind a diamond laser-etched with a fancy name.

Funny you mention Cartier. I visited their Fifth Avenue store to ask if they'd set a customer-supplied diamond. They were impressed enough with our stone that they consulted with Paris to see if they'd make an exception to their rule--and it's not like I brought in the Hope diamond or anything, either. It's just that the people who work at such places are not necessarily aware that individual consumers can get their hands on diamonds as nice as what they sell.

So was Cartier willing to do it? I assume you went all private with your ring?