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post #3001 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlsquirl View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

Maybe too conservative for the jacket?

 

 

The micro check shirt?  No way.

 

Too city/business for the jacket, yes, but it looked great anyway.

post #3002 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Six View Post

Too city/business for the jacket, yes, but it looked great anyway.

It looks great yes, as is.

interesting as I don't like the check for business/city

Different, ever so, is the GB PM has taken to wearing gingham shirts... facepalm.gif
post #3003 of 3318
Here is a compilation post of the principles and pictures, @TweedyProf.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Ok, I'll bite. I like 1 and 2 about the same; 3 I like less. A big secondary color in the tie (blue) looks a lot like the ground color of the shirt. I think the principle here is that it is always dangerous to have a major secondary in the tie echo the shirt ground (unless both are white). I don't say that it Is always wrong, just that it is always dangerous.

For example:



I think this illustrates another principle: a tie is supposed to look like it grows out of the shirt as a plant grows out of the earth to freedom; it's not supposed to look like the shirt ground has been pulling the tie back down with little vines that burrow through the tie.

As for 1 and 2, I think 1 is clearly more successful, but a lot easier. 2 doesn't come off as well as 1, but it's trying to do something more difficult. if the tie ground in 2 were more vibrant, and the tie had more texture, I think the ensemble might be smashing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

I don't think it's the matching of hues that's the problem. I think it's that the tie looks like orange is the dominant color, and blue and green secondaries. What makes the visual message just a touch muddled is that the blue secondary in the tie is the same tint and shade, more or less, as the blue ground of the coat. So I think we have another principle: it is always dangerous to have what looks like a secondary color in the tie echo in hue, tint, and shade the ground color in the coat. This holds even when that color is one of the men's standards--blue, brown, gray, black, white. Look at this guy--gray is the most neutral of all colors, but the gray secondary in the tie matches the ground of the coat, and deep-sixes his ensemble.



For another example, this guy clearly knows what he's doing dress-wise, but his ensemble falls afoul of the principle. The navy secondary in the tie looks off with the navy ground of the suit.



Note though that it is fine to have a secondary in the tie that looks just as prominent as the ground be the same hue, tint, and shade as the coat ground. Here, SpooPoker's tie has a red ground, but the navy stripe is almost as prominent as the ground. That's fine, because the navy stripe looks as prominent as the red ground.



Of course, having the tie ground echo a secondary color in the coat is a classic pairing.





Just for kicks, here is a good example of the grave danger I mentioned upthread: having the secondary in the tie match the secondary in the shirt:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

This [below of TweedyProf] I like quite a bit. It honors the principle that it is usually pleasing to have the primary color of the tie echo a secondary color in the shirt, and the principle that it is usually pleasing to have the tie primary be a complementary contrast with the ground and secondary in the coat.

The solid tie on a tattersall with a glen plaid coat avoids one small problem with @zr3rs's combination: the neats on the tie are very similar in scale to the check in his tattersall. That's what makes the ensemble pretty busy, as he put it. If the tie had considerably bigger medallions, like in some of Urban Compostition's recent postings, the busy-ness would be reduced.



[/quote]
post #3004 of 3318
Another principle: it is always dangerous to have the ground of the shirt match in hue, saturation, and shade a major secondary in the coat (unless dead white, ivory, or similar).

This falls afoul of the principle, because the blue check is so major:

post #3005 of 3318
Thread Starter 

Possibly true but that example has a possible confound which is (at least for me) that the blue in the shirt seems hard to wear anyway.

 

If the overcheck in the jacket was navy, as in the Moonbeam that people have been wearing recently, not sure it would look too much better. But it is consistent with your principle that it would look better and because of an added contrast along the blue dimension. So I'm not disagreeing in the end.

post #3006 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Another principle: it is always dangerous to have the ground of the shirt match in hue, saturation, and shade a major secondary in the coat (unless dead white, ivory, or similar).

This falls afoul of the principle, because the blue check is so major:
  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

I don't intuitively or by tradition see why similar shirt and jacket deco color are necessarily a problem-  or for that matter, why a secondary in the tie shouldn't be the same or similar in color to the principal color in a jacket.    Too many other factors come into play imo.  For me, the prob with the fit above is the brown tie/brown jacket combo.  That's not optimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

Possibly true but that example has a possible confound which is (at least for me) that the blue in the shirt seems hard to wear anyway.

 

If the overcheck in the jacket was navy, as in the Moonbeam that people have been wearing recently, not sure it would look too much better. But it is consistent with your principle that it would look better and because of an added contrast along the blue dimension. So I'm not disagreeing in the end.

post #3007 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post


For some reason I actually like that one.

What is the rule. Men don't match colors, but women do?
post #3008 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by greger View Post

For some reason I actually like that one.

What is the rule. Men don't match colors, but women do?
agreed. nice look
post #3009 of 3318
Thread Starter 

Nice discussion going on in WAYWRN about scale mixing so I thought I would start a similar conversation here. Data is a good thing though so in the interest of sartorial science, examples of my own fits are provided. We can leave @Murlsquirl alone (not that he needs any aid).

 

Feel free to use any example to articulate your thoughts about scale, business, repetition and so forth. Additional examples are welcome. Focus on patterns and not colors just to keep the issue clear. Criticism of the fits is completely fine but keep criticisms to the issue of patterns.

 

Solid: Always advisable

 

 

 

 

 

 

Medallions

 

 

 

 

Stripes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #3010 of 3318
Thread Starter 

I suppose the thing to say about patterned (checked) jackets like the above. They are inherently energetic and so an appropriate move is to tame the energy with a solid tie.

 

Patterned ties are "doubling down" on the energy of the jacket. So the question is what gain is there from moving away from the solid?

 

It has to be contrast. 

 

Consider the medallions.

 

1. If tie patterns are same size, scale, density as the jacket pattern, that's just simply doubling down.

 

So, you have to push away from the jacket in terms of size of the elements of the pattern. We all know that.

 

Now, consider the two medallions. The first works better than the second IMO because the medallions are larger. So the contrast is greater.

 

But the medallions also works, I think, because there isn't a simple repetition of the same pattern over and over (as in your typical neat). Rather, there are two different sized medallions, the main one being noticeably larger than the checks in the jacket. So I think neats wouldn't work for a checked jacket though some will be worse/better than others. 

 

So, suggestion: for repeating patterns, ensure at least two contrasts in pattern: the size of the pattern and the type of repetition for example (density is another). More success is achieved by increasing the distance along these two dimensions.

 

I'll have thoughts about the stripes later.

post #3011 of 3318

i don't like the medallions with that jacket because I feel like it ruins the lines of the pattern at the lapel/tie interface. The stripes and textured ties fit much better.

post #3012 of 3318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
 

i don't like the medallions with that jacket because I feel like it ruins the lines of the pattern at the lapel/tie interface. The stripes and textured ties fit much better.


hey RTC...interesting though I'm not fully sure what you mean. Care to elaborate?

 

It is a fair question whether medallions would work for such jackets, though I would happily wear the first medallion again. I don't think neats are a good (dare I say optimal?) choice, and certainly in part because it's mixing a suit tie with an odd jacket pattern.

post #3013 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 


hey RTC...interesting though I'm not fully sure what you mean. Care to elaborate?

 

It is a fair question whether medallions would work for such jackets, though I would happily wear the first medallion again. I don't think neats are a good (dare I say optimal?) choice, and certainly in part because it's mixing a suit tie with an odd jacket pattern.

 

The stripes connect the pattern, albeit with a different line, but to my eye it's more cohesive. The medallions have their own pattern going on that's distinctly different than the jacket. It disrupts the flow between the lapels. Follow the jacket left to right between the lapels and let your eye be guided by the lines, that should explain what I'm seeing.


The solids/textured ties are just present. They don't really do anything but break it up. The neats have a different scale going on and it's less pleasing.


Again, this is super nit picky. I probably wouldn't pair it with a medallion but I don't think it's objectively bad. Might be better choices, sure, but sometimes you want to wear the tie that you want to wear. I do like the first medallion tie more as well, for reasons I can't explain. I think it's how the pattern is contained.

post #3014 of 3318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
 

 

The stripes connect the pattern, albeit with a different line, but to my eye it's more cohesive. The medallions have their own pattern going on that's distinctly different than the jacket. It disrupts the flow between the lapels. Follow the jacket left to right between the lapels and let your eye be guided by the lines, that should explain what I'm seeing.


The solids/textured ties are just present. They don't really do anything but break it up. The neats have a different scale going on and it's less pleasing.


Again, this is super nit picky. I probably wouldn't pair it with a medallion but I don't think it's objectively bad. Might be better choices, sure, but sometimes you want to wear the tie that you want to wear. I do like the first medallion tie more as well, for reasons I can't explain. I think it's how the pattern is contained.


Interesting...I think the last point is well taken which is why Murlsquirl's attitude wrt to the comments is the right one: You got to wear what you enjoy wearing (within basic bounds though, but that allows for a lot of room).

 

As a counterpoint: think of the medallions as creating a line (not a solid one of course), and they do the same as the striped ties.

post #3015 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 


Interesting...I think the last point is well taken which is why Murlsquirl's attitude wrt to the comments is the right one: You got to wear what you enjoy wearing (within basic bounds though, but that allows for a lot of room).

 

As a counterpoint: think of the medallions as creating a line (not a solid one of course), and they do the same as the striped ties.



Fair enough. The eye has to do more work though. That's the only difference from my POV tbh.

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