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The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY,... - Page 40

post #586 of 1166
This is a small selection of the chambray offerings for the old SWD order (was in 07/09). These are the selvege offerings. There were about 20 non-selvege chambrays, though they were a bit coarser:

I chose no. 25. It looks like 26 is what you were looking for.

Or possibly no. 8, from the non selvege:
post #587 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

What employer is paying that kind of price for poly-blend workshirts? confused.gif

It would not be the most ridiculous thing the French government has paid for . . .

Also, you assume Simonnot Godard charges everyone the same price. For all we know, some customers pay a premium to subsidize prices for others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

The closest I have seen is
and some wool/cotton blends.

If you refer to making up a special order chambray in the correct shade of blue from the right source (perhaps from the SWD source), it is not the "easily available alternative" that I mentioned in my original post.

Again, the whole point is that a company like Bonfanti (or Alumo or SIC Tess or Riva, etc.) is not going to make a chambray like the "old" denim-like SG chambray--it's not nice shirting. You need to completely recalibrate your search. But since there is nothing intrinsically special about the stuff, I'm sure you can find it once you do. If there was some shoemaker in some random French village that makes moccasins like the ones you get from L.L. Bean, but charges a thousand bucks a pair, would you look for something similar at places like John Lobb, or places like L.L. Bean?

Carl named a few sources, a Spanish and Japanese one if I recall, that might be worth looking into. Also, if you really want something close to the original, make sure to spec some polyester (about 20% should do the trick . . .). smile.gif
post #588 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

It would not be the least ridiculous thing the French government has paid for . . .

Also, you assume we all pay the same prices.

It's charming you always take me so literally.
post #589 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Again, the whole point is that a company like Bonfanti (or Alumo or SIC Tess or Riva, etc.) is not going to make a chambray like the "old" denim-like SG chambray--it's not nice shirting. You need to completely recalibrate your search.
I guess what I'm confused about is that a variety of respected current or former members have identified chambray as a good fabric for shirts you would wear in nonformal business settings. It seemed like there was a growing consensus around chambray as a lighter-wearing alternative to oxford cloth. Was it always a myth that chambray (distinct from a standard end-on-end) could serve as a good tailored-clothing fabric?
post #590 of 1166
I thought the SG chambray was supposed to be kind of anachronistic--not 18th century of course, more like 1960s. Real workshirts aren't made out of fabric with "character" anymore.

David Coffin in his book on shirtmaking said he bought some really honest chambray from the Amish. I followed up (years later) and they said all they had anymore was 100% poly. Even the Amish are wearing polyester these days.
post #591 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thin Man View Post

I guess what I'm confused about is that a variety of respected current or former members have identified chambray as a good fabric for shirts you would wear in nonformal business settings. It seemed like there was a growing consensus around chambray as a lighter-wearing alternative to oxford cloth. Was it always a myth that chambray (distinct from a standard end-on-end) could serve as a good tailored-clothing fabric?

This is what I think happened.

Myself, and many others, didn't realize that chambray is structurally and materially no different from end-on-end. Meanwhile, Simonnot Godard was known to produce a chambray with singularly distinct aesthetic and tactile qualities. Namely, it has a mottled coloration and a slightly hairy nap. We confused those qualities for being related to the shirting being chambray.

However, it turns out that chambray--including that produced by Simonnot Godard--is really no different from a plain-woven end-on-end where the warp is all one color and the weft is white. Hence, it's the yarns used by Simonnot Godard that distinguish their version of chambray. They are single-ply, large diameter, and unevenly dyed. Combined with a somewhat irregular weave, that's how you get the mottled, variegated coloration. When you look up close, you can see that the individual fibers of the yarns are breaking free. That's where the hairy nap comes from. Neither of those two features are typically desirable in nice shirting. Just the opposite, actually. So, the question becomes (at least to my mind): if you still want those qualities, why pay a huge premium when they are more common on much cheaper fabrics? Perhaps the only reason we thought Simonnot Godard's "old" chambray is so special was simply because it is atypical for fine shirting, not because it is broadly unique. That their current version of the "old" chambray is 20% polyester only makes things look more ridiculous.

Still, the Simonnot Godard chambray is supposedly special in one other respect: the yarns are said be high-twist, as in fresco suiting, making it crisp and keeping it from sticking to your skin as much. I don't know if that's really true, though my order of "new" chambray certainly has a dry hand. In any event, I don't think the shirting's crispness is what people are chiefly interested in.
post #592 of 1166
IGent groupthink sometimes ends up with heartache. Also it's good to get sample fabric before ordering.
post #593 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


Also, you assume Simonnot Godard charges everyone the same price. For all we know, some customers pay a premium to subsidize prices for others.
Again, the whole point is that a company like Bonfanti (or Alumo or SIC Tess or Riva, etc.) is not going to make a chambray like the "old" denim-like SG chambray--it's not nice shirting. You need to completely recalibrate your search. But since there is nothing intrinsically special about the stuff, I'm sure you can find it once you do. If there was some shoemaker in some random French village that makes moccasins like the ones you get from L.L. Bean, but charges a thousand bucks a pair, would you look for something similar at places like John Lobb, or places like L.L. Bean?

Carl named a few sources, a Spanish and Japanese one if I recall, that might be worth looking into. Also, if you really want something close to the original, make sure to spec some polyester (about 20% should do the trick . . .). smile.gif

I slaked my curiosity regarding the SG chambray after making up a shirt a little over 2 years ago. I've moved on to trying out other materials and seeing what I can learn.
post #594 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

This is a small selection of the chambray offerings for the old SWD order (was in 07/09). These are the selvege offerings. There were about 20 non-selvege chambrays, though they were a bit coarser:

I chose no. 25. It looks like 26 is what you were looking for.

Or possibly no. 8, from the non selvege:

#26 looks closer then #8, which doesn't appear to have the combination of blue warp and white weft to be chambray. It looks more like the yarns in both directions are light blue.
post #595 of 1166
Are the following fabrics chambray? They're Thomas Mason end on ends.

EndonEnds_zps33167c33.jpg

Prefer these colors/designs to the SG "new chambray" posted above.
post #596 of 1166
Shirtmaven 1, styleforvm iGents 0

Respect!

icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
post #597 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I'm not sure how much finishing would influence the memory and resilience of a fabric. If anything, wouldn't any sort of finishing, such as a chemical treatment, weaken it? It seems to me that "sponginess" as Andre describes has a lot more to do with the intrinsic nature of the fibers used, how they are twisted/spun into yarns, and how the yarns are woven together.


The finishing is necessary, you must to see the tissu when it come from the loom, before the finishing! Finishing is also for to set dimension stability of tissu, no only for this, also other raison!

This days use other substance, is some restriction, much much year before some times use thing like formaldehyde for part of finishing!
post #598 of 1166
The problem with the old SG chambray is that is a material to produce cheap RTW shirts, the kind sold at 20-25 euro per shirt. An old member from this forum left almost a shirt lenght for me to check with our shared shirtmaker, and the shirtmaker comments were around how bad a shirting it was to use for a bespoke shirt. Like using some cheap Vietnamese fabric normally used in RTW garments for a bespoke suit. There was a very similar chambray fabric produced by a lesser known mill at 7.99 euro per meter, 100% cotton but it was more then 200g per m vs the alleged 140g x m of SG (can Matt or other confirm the exact weight from a reliable source).
The fuzziness/flannel effect is not necessarily a mark of a poly blend as many denim jeans from Levi's have it, new from the shelf. My Albini version has a ver slight fuzziness.
Also, the Levanto range from Bonfanti (chambray) is a 40/2x30/1 fabric, 195g x m, 150cm wide, hardly a fine fabric, so a very appropriate substitute then the shamed SG.
post #599 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post

The problem with the old SG chambray is that is a material to produce cheap RTW shirts, the kind sold at 20-25 euro per shirt. An old member from this forum left almost a shirt lenght for me to check with our shared shirtmaker, and the shirtmaker comments were around how bad a shirting it was to use for a bespoke shirt. Like using some cheap Vietnamese fabric normally used in RTW garments for a bespoke suit. There was a very similar chambray fabric produced by a lesser known mill at 7.99 euro per meter, 100% cotton but it was more then 200g per m vs the alleged 140g x m of SG (can Matt or other confirm the exact weight from a reliable source).
The fuzziness/flannel effect is not necessarily a mark of a poly blend as many denim jeans from Levi's have it, new from the shelf. My Albini version has a ver slight fuzziness.
Also, the Levanto range from Bonfanti (chambray) is a 40/2x30/1 fabric, 195g x m, 150cm wide, hardly a fine fabric, so a very appropriate substitute then the shamed SG.

I cannot relay information regarding the "old" chambray, but the "new" chambray I have is reportedly 140g/meter.

You're right, the polyester is not the sole cause of the shirting's fuzziness . However, it's evident with close observation that it is caused by breakaway fibers. I don't think that can be a good thing, and the polyester content can only make it worse.

What do you know about the "new" chambray, such as I posted on my blog?
post #600 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

Are the following fabrics chambray? They're Thomas Mason end on ends. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

EndonEnds_zps33167c33.jpg

Prefer these colors/designs to the SG "new chambray" posted above.

Those look like end-on-ends.
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