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Allen Edmonds Appreciation Thread - reviews, pictures, sizing, etc... - Page 4262  

post #63916 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post


Here is a photo from one of my dissections of a main-line shoe: 




You can see the surface texture of the layer under the one I peeled back, and it has a finely patterned appearance as if it was stamped out.  Whatever it is... leather, paper, some other unidentified fiber, it isn't stacked leather.

I have no idea how long they've been using this material, so this may not be a revelation.  Even in a lot of the high end English shoes, pre-assembled heels are the norm.  But, the better ones are still leather. 

I certainly get outspoken about certain components being made of inferior materials, but I will say that synthetic heel and toe stiffeners are also the norm.  There are a few out there that use leather in the non-bespoke world, but not many.  So, AE isn't really violating any GY-welted shoe manufacturing standards there. 

Frankly, I'm much more worried about how many models are shifting to Poron insoles than I am about the synthetic heel stack since the heel stack gets replaced at recrafting no matter what.  The insole, however, is there for life. 

Shall we get DFW in here to talk about quality of manufacturing etc? wink.gif Goodyear welting itself means you are cutting a corner. You're replacing the work of a skilled shoemaker to sew the welt on by a cheap laborer that uses a machine to sew on the welt. This is one of the inventions that made shoes cheaper and more affordable for the average joe but its cutting corners just like replacing leather soles or heels with cheaper materials (and arguably sometimes that actually also makes them better - commando soles for Montreal winters vs a nice leather sole anyone?).

So the real question I think is whether you're honest about your process. Does AE say they use leather heels? Probably not but they probably also don't stick your nose in the fact that they aren't since people will believe what they want to, if you don't. I.e. they want to believe that goodyear welted shoes are "handmade" (just ask DFW or any real shoemaker about that) and they want to believe that their chosen shoe's heels are all leather. It's much easier to make fun of the people that pay full retail for say a Cole Haan and talk about people that don't know cheap corrected grain leather from good leather than to accept that you yourself didn't even notice that your favourite pair might not actually have leather heels wink.gif
post #63917 of 70737

*Reads past three pages of the thread*

 

*Thinks "are these guys fucking serious right now?"*

 

*Moves on with his night*

post #63918 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by peppercorn78 View Post

I guess you don't know that @garland works for AE. So I wouldn't call him ignorant. At the very least he knows more about the brands products than anyone else here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

Shall we get DFW in here to talk about quality of manufacturing etc? wink.gif Goodyear welting itself means you are cutting a corner. You're replacing the work of a skilled shoemaker to sew the welt on by a cheap laborer that uses a machine to sew on the welt. This is one of the inventions that made shoes cheaper and more affordable for the average joe but its cutting corners just like replacing leather soles or heels with cheaper materials (and arguably sometimes that actually also makes them better - commando soles for Montreal winters vs a nice leather sole anyone?).

So the real question I think is whether you're honest about your process. Does AE say they use leather heels? Probably not but they probably also don't stick your nose in the fact that they aren't since people will believe what they want to, if you don't. I.e. they want to believe that goodyear welted shoes are "handmade" (just ask DFW or any real shoemaker about that) and they want to believe that their chosen shoe's heels are all leather. It's much easier to make fun of the people that pay full retail for say a Cole Haan and talk about people that don't know cheap corrected grain leather from good leather than to accept that you yourself didn't even notice that your favourite pair might not actually have leather heels wink.gif

It's not about only cardboard heels, decrease in leather quality and now poron insoles in their recent collection. We are seeing a trend here and at the same time they are increasing their prices.

The AE shoe stores I visited and Nordstrom did tell me that the shoes were handmade and actually the shoes themselves mentioned at the insoles "handcrafted" while these are machine-made shoes. My point is that these are marketed as handmade untill you come here on styleforum and learn what truly handmade means.
post #63919 of 70737
@Neo1

Thanks. I do have the delrays in 8 EEE and they are quite loose around the toe and slightly loose around the middle of the foot where I'm relatively the widest.

I will check out the addisons - however I do really like the Grayson style. In terms of the width alone, would they be wider than the Waldens?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post

@iloveplaid the Walden and the Grayson fit very differently. The Grayson will feel longer for sure - you may like it better (same size). What else have you tried? Need a little more info, but shooting from the hip, id check out the Addison, McGraw or something else in the 234.
post #63920 of 70737
@Neo1 one more reference point, I tried on the brooks presidio loafer and the 7 EEE was too tight on the baby toe but fine in the middle. 8 EEE was almost perfect except the heel slippage - essentially too long. I think I need 7.5 eeee or eeeee. Any additional help would be appreciated.
post #63921 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

Shall we get DFW in here to talk about quality of manufacturing etc? wink.gif Goodyear welting itself means you are cutting a corner. You're replacing the work of a skilled shoemaker to sew the welt on by a cheap laborer that uses a machine to sew on the welt. This is one of the inventions that made shoes cheaper and more affordable for the average joe but its cutting corners just like replacing leather soles or heels with cheaper materials (and arguably sometimes that actually also makes them better - commando soles for Montreal winters vs a nice leather sole anyone?).

So the real question I think is whether you're honest about your process. Does AE say they use leather heels? Probably not but they probably also don't stick your nose in the fact that they aren't since people will believe what they want to, if you don't. I.e. they want to believe that goodyear welted shoes are "handmade" (just ask DFW or any real shoemaker about that) and they want to believe that their chosen shoe's heels are all leather. It's much easier to make fun of the people that pay full retail for say a Cole Haan and talk about people that don't know cheap corrected grain leather from good leather than to accept that you yourself didn't even notice that your favourite pair might not actually have leather heels wink.gif

Sounds like you've been reading some of the threads I spend most of my time in these days. Certainly, GY-welting is a machine imitation of the old world method of shoe making. But, that discussion has more merit in threads dealing with the subject of truly making the finest products. No AE wearer should believe he's wearing anything of that caliber, even within the realm of Goodyear. The people spending over a grand per pair, for a Goodyear shoe, can get their feathers ruffled when they are reminded that they can get a much higher quality product for less money (style differences aside).

DW will certainly tell you that GY-welting has its place. He just doesn't appreciate the deception that people buy about it being the supposed best. That's his issue, and it's one I agree with. Charles Goodyear didn't invent shoe welting. He purchased the rights to the invention of the machine that made it possible to mechanise the process. He didn't even invent the machine. Welted shoes were being made for many centuries before Goodyear came along. But, shoes were far more expensive and time consuming to make. Mechanization has allowed every man to wear decent shoes, just like Ford made it possible for every man to drive a car. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't confuse your BMW for a hand made Rolls Royce. DW would prefer that everyone know that, but it's difficult when the marketing of these companies are spouting that Goodyear is the end all be all in shoes, and that it's the origin of quality. It simply isn't.
post #63922 of 70737


Absolutely interesting and informative debate - all for it - but in essence seems to come down to basically 2 points:

 

--am I getting sub-standard quality for the price I`m paying?

--Is AE making a fool of me?

 

To the first point:  Perhaps - if one is truly the Ben Graham of shoe construction economics vs. Retail Value Proposition of operating a $300 million revenue company.  That is, always looks straightforward when the customer says "wow, I could make that shoe for $100", conveniently forgetting that warehouses, staff, retail space, distribution channels, employer payroll source deductions etc. eat up another $100 - before trying to generate EBITDA for the shareholders - never mind the capital costs involved in building said operations.  Yah, everyone's a business genius till they're challenged to do it themselves...and yes, the whole Carmina thing is irrelevant - as much as the fact that here in Canada, the cost of a Strand 2nd @ US $299 + $40 shipping + $110 Exchange rate = I can buy a 1st quality Strand at Harry Rosen - it's an anomaly resulting from external market conditions.

 

Is AE making a fool of you with their claims of superior product while using inferior methods/materials in construction?  Perhaps - IF YOU'RE NOT HAPPY WITH WHAT YOURE GETTING FOR YOUR $$$.  Simple - cuz at the end of the day, that's all the matters

 

And if you truly feel that way - and by God, if you do, you certainly have every right to that opinion regardless of what anyone else says - then STOP BUYING THEM - that's all, nothing to it.

 

See, some things in life are simple

post #63923 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

Sounds like you've been reading some of the threads I spend most of my time in these days. Certainly, GY-welting is a machine imitation of the old world method of shoe making. But, that discussion has more merit in threads dealing with the subject of truly making the finest products. No AE wearer should believe he's wearing anything of that caliber, even within the realm of Goodyear. The people spending over a grand per pair, for a Goodyear shoe, can get their feathers ruffled when they are reminded that they can get a much higher quality product for less money (style differences aside).

DW will certainly tell you that GY-welting has its place. He just doesn't appreciate the deception that people buy about it being the supposed best. That's his issue, and it's one I agree with. Charles Goodyear didn't invent shoe welting. He purchased the rights to the invention of the machine that made it possible to mechanise the process. He didn't even invent the machine. Welted shoes were being made for many centuries before Goodyear came along. But, shoes were far more expensive and time consuming to make. Mechanization has allowed every man to wear decent shoes, just like Ford made it possible for every man to drive a car. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't confuse your BMW for a hand made Rolls Royce. DW would prefer that everyone know that, but it's difficult when the marketing of these companies are spouting that Goodyear is the end all be all in shoes, and that it's the origin of quality. It simply isn't.

Well said MWS!
post #63924 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGY1atTMW View Post


Absolutely interesting and informative debate - all for it - but in essence seems to come down to basically 2 points:

--am I getting sub-standard quality for the price I`m paying?
--Is AE making a fool of me?

I think the answer to both of these questions, if you are an informed buyer, is no.

Personally, I still consider AE to be a fairly transparent company. The information is mostly there, if you want it.

The quality for the money is still highly respectable, and comparing them to another company like Carmina in terms of price simply isn't logical. If accessibility isn't a concern, and if you don't care about supporting an American made product, then clearly there are other choices.

I'm neutral in that arguement.

AE has a very clear niche, and you either find appeal on that or you don't.
post #63925 of 70737

Did somebody just use the acronym EBITDA in this forum? First time hearing this for sure. 

 

But yea, that's a really good point regarding direct cost and indirect cost. The shoes may cost $100 to make, but indirect cost can be just as expensive. 

 

AE is owned by PE right? Since the Company is levered, they must generate a return that is higher than what the banks are charging them for its debt. Not to mention, AE needs to hurdle, if not, what's the point of the buyout? 

post #63926 of 70737

Hi everyone.  I have been trying to get myself a pair of black and/or brown Park Aves.  Here is my problem.  Every pair I look at seems to be a bit different.  Firstly, within the same size (9D), the size of the cap seems to vary, with some a bit bigger/smaller than others.  In addition, the cap line on some pairs seem to be on an angle.  Lastly, I find that the polish (or finish) varies in shine from pair to pair.  Not to mention that some pairs seem to have some QC issues, with the stitching along the welt not being finished cleanly.  What's the deal?

post #63927 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by JezeC View Post
 

Did somebody just use the acronym EBITDA in this forum?

 

 

Yeah, sorry for that - didnt want to bring out the big guns, but it had to be said :D

 

Joking aside, MWS you correctly summarized exactly what I'm saying/thinking

post #63928 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by JezeC View Post
 

Did somebody just use the acronym EBITDA in this forum? First time hearing this for sure. 

 

But yea, that's a really good point regarding direct cost and indirect cost. The shoes may cost $100 to make, but indirect cost can be just as expensive. 

 

AE is owned by PE right? Since the Company is levered, they must generate a return that is higher than what the banks are charging them for its debt. Not to mention, AE needs to hurdle, if not, what's the point of the buyout? 

 

Do you think the guys at the PE firm wear AE shoes? :cheers:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mosy View Post
 

Hi everyone.  I have been trying to get myself a pair of black and/or brown Park Aves.  Here is my problem.  Every pair I look at seems to be a bit different.  Firstly, within the same size (9D), the size of the cap seems to vary, with some a bit bigger/smaller than others.  In addition, the cap line on some pairs seem to be on an angle.  Lastly, I find that the polish (or finish) varies in shine from pair to pair.  Not to mention that some pairs seem to have some QC issues, with the stitching along the welt not being finished cleanly.  What's the deal?

 

Oh no. Here we go again...

post #63929 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by P12OFIT View Post
 

 

Do you think the guys at the PE firm wear AE shoes? :cheers:

 

 

Oh no. Here we go again...


LOL...alllllrighty, now for a good ole'  fashioned rant we can ALL get into :hide: 

post #63930 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by P12OFIT View Post
 

 

Do you think the guys at the PE firm wear AE shoes? :cheers:

 

 

Oh no. Here we go again...

 

Sorry if this is an old issue, this is really my first foray into AE.  Any guidance or insight would be appreciated.  (I'd hate to have to read through 4000+ pages...)

Thanks in advance!

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