Is this good protein?

Originally Posted by javyn

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I can't believe there is a heated argument over a supplement you don't really need anyway.

Buy some cottage cheese and shut the hell up.

And if you are lactose intolerant, buy some chicken breast and shut the hell up.

I wonder if all of you put as much thought and effort to maintaining the proper form while lifting as you do in pointless minutea of unnecessary supplementation.

PS here's a little fun fact you can flame me for all you want, yet will change nothing - consuming more than 20-30 grams of protein during one sitting is not only pointless, but can lead to long term digestive problems. Think about that next time you feel like fattening Wieder's wallet with one of your 8 scoop protein shakes.

Evidence or shut the hell up.

Originally Posted by javyn

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I can't believe there is a heated argument over a supplement you don't really need anyway.

Buy some cottage cheese and shut the hell up.

And if you are lactose intolerant, buy some chicken breast and shut the hell up.

I wonder if all of you put as much thought and effort to maintaining the proper form while lifting as you do in pointless minutea of unnecessary supplementation.

PS here's a little fun fact you can flame me for all you want, yet will change nothing - consuming more than 20-30 grams of protein during one sitting is not only pointless, but can lead to long term digestive problems. Think about that next time you feel like fattening Wieder's wallet with one of your 8 scoop protein shakes.

I think you have a good point, though it depends how broadly you define "need." I don't really think of protein as a super supplement that's going to pack on muscle. It's just an easy and convenient way for me to get the protein I need during the day. But yes, you'll get more benefit out of putting more energy into lifting than into supplement debates.

About your "fun fact"... Do you have a source for that? I have a hard time believing that our omnivorous ancestors did not consume more than 20-30g of protein at one sitting. 20 or 30g of protein from animal flesh or fish is nothing. If I was hungry and trying to kill a buffalo, I certainly would not refrain from chomping down on a big piece of meat because it would be more than 30g.

Anyhow, to the OP...that protein is fine. You can also look at Optimum Nutrition's Gold Standard Whey. It's cheap and with a good value and flavor.

i bought it and it tastes good. but it does make me fart

Originally Posted by Philosoph

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About your "fun fact"... Do you have a source for that? I have a hard time believing that our omnivorous ancestors did not consume more than 20-30g of protein at one sitting. 20 or 30g of protein from animal flesh or fish is nothing. If I was hungry and trying to kill a buffalo, I certainly would not refrain from chomping down on a big piece of meat because it would be more than 30g.

I don't have any significant sources for this, although nutritionists and strength/conditioning coaches at UCSD I used to work with have told me this, I have also read it in Muscle & Fitness on occasion... Although the numbers I've always gone by are 30-35g.

... I have followed this, however, for staying lean... I was under the presumption that the excess protein was stored as fat... Which would make sense in an evolutionary sense as the extra fat is used as warmth and obviously in times when less food is available. Cause of course, our ancestors could rip into 100+ grams of protein just like we could with a massive steak etc...

Well, excess energy would be stored as fat. I just don't think that anything over 40g would be stored as fat. As far as I know, those numbers for how much protein we can handle at once don't take digestion time into account. Even if the body can only work with 40g of protein at a time, no food has a digestion time of 0. So if you ate 100g of beef protein, it's not like that 100g would suddenly appear in your blood stream all at once. It takes hours for it to digest completely, using up energy all the while. Even if you ate more than 40g of whey, it still wouldn't all digest immediately. But the hypothesis may not even be true at all.

A quick google search shows this may not be entirely accurate... that depending on size/activity it could be 50-55g. Bodybuilders/powerlifters etc.. athletes that are insane in the amount of work they do in that regard up to 80ish... but I couldn't find any research of how all 80g are metabolized. But I'm 165lb so my 35g per serving works well for me. Here is a rather good discussion on the topic: http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...roundtable.htm

Originally Posted by Lyle McDonald

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While I'm not exactly sure where the whole idea that the body can only absorb so much protein at once came from, I have a couple of guesses.

1. It was a myth promoted by Joe Weider to pimp his protein products. IN support of this, the official number tends to change depending on the supplement company with the number magically becoming whatever their protein produce happens to contain. When Met-RX protein products contained 30 grams of protein, 30 was the magic number; when they raised it to about 40, 40 become the magic number.

2. Bodybuilders have a tendency to decided on a strategy (or epmirically find something that works) and then make up physiology to back it up. Having decided that they were going to eat 6 meals/day, it may have been convenient to divide backwards and tell pepople that 30 g/meal was the max.

I have foudn exactly zero research to support this idea. Quite as a mater of fact, it would make zero sense in an evolutionary standpoint. I discussed this iwth a nutrition researcher years ago, he asserted that there was research in the 40's and 50's looking at the issue (using stuff like 1.5 g/kg of protein and seeing what came out the other end) that found no limit on protein absorption/digestion. IN that research that old doesn't show up on Medline, I've neer tracked it down.

My point about our ancestors is that we are though to have evolved on anywhere from 2.5-3.5 g/kg of protein. Do you think we made sure to only eat a handful of protein at once? Right, we evolved as creatures of opportunity, when a big kill was made, people gorged. The reason our ancestors were more muscular and leaner than us was activity.

The body does not store protein in the same way that it stores carbs and fat.

That said, there has ben some research showing that there is a maximal amount of protein entering the system in terms of reaching a limit on how far protein synthesis is stimulated. I believe that's around 40 grams but what functional significance this has has yet to be decided.

fair points. I think Im going to up my protein consumption and see what if anything changes... If anything its an excuse for more steak etc..

I stopped using any proteins at all. I think it is way better to achieve results with just a normal daily nutrition, somehow it is true that "easy get easy loose". I`m quite sceptical towards proteins.

There has been research on protein allowances, comparing .8 g/kg (previous FDA recommendation) and 1.4 g/kg and 2.4 g/kg. (Tarnopolsky et al., J. Appl. Physiol., 73:1986-1995,1992):

Whole body protein synthesis was slightly higher (from 230:250 mg/kg/h or so) but not significantly so between 1.4 g and 2.4 g/kg. However, with the 2.4 g/kg group, there was significant increase in protein breakdown (Leucine
Oxidation was 80 umol/kg/h in the 2.4g/kg group vs. 50 umol/kg/h in the 1.4 g group).

As a result, it's estimated 1.4-1.8g/kg/d is optimal.

Unless you're an extreme ectomorph (i.e. have trouble gaining weight), protein shakes are whack. I took them for years and had a hard time maintaining an acceptable bodyfat level. As soon as I stopped (except for an occasional rushed breakfast) my bodyfat dropped.

I still lift weights 3-4 times per week, eat only whole foods, and my muscle stays the same. Plus I'm leaner.

In my years of riding the protein shake train I have learned a few things, mostly that whole food is vastly superior and whey protein is largely a waste of money, as are most weight lifting supplements (except creatine--it works).

Whole food is superior because it has vitamins and other nutrients whey does not. It digests slower and provides timed-release protein. Whey digests very quickly--sorry, but you're muscles can't properly utilize 23g of protein in an hour. Some of that will be inevitably be stored as fat.

Protein shakes give me gas. That is indicator #1 that it's not being used.

They often taste terrible and lumpy, depending how you make them. I'd rather have a couple scoops of tasty full-fat cottage cheese and reap the benefits of 23g of slow-release casein protein, than 23g of liquid whey that runs through my system in two hours and quarantines me from the rest of my family.

Bottom line: Buy some if you want, but don't use it as a replacement for whole food. Use it if you're running late and need a quick breakfast. Use it if you work out and don't have time to pack food. But don't replace meals with it.

Originally Posted by Opermann

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Unless you're an extreme ectomorph (i.e. have trouble gaining weight), protein shakes are whack.

Considering 'protein shakes' encompasses everything from ***** Muscle Milk to protein isolates, I don't see how you can qualify that statement.

Whole food is superior because it has vitamins and other nutrients whey does not. It digests slower and provides timed-release protein. Whey digests very quickly--sorry, but you're muscles can't properly utilize 23g of protein in an hour. Some of that will be inevitably be stored as fat.

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Oh, okay. Your anecdotal evidence with no additional information about your training or diet clearly trumps the multitude of studies.

Protein shakes give me gas. That is indicator #1 that it's not being used.

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No, it's the #1 indicator that you used ****** ones.

why, are you really trying to start an argument on how fast whey digests?

Originally Posted by why

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Considering 'protein shakes' encompasses everything from ***** Muscle Milk to protein isolates, I don't see how you can qualify that statement. Oh, okay. Your anecdotal evidence with no additional information about your training or diet clearly trumps the multitude of studies. No, it's the #1 indicator that you used ****** ones.
Why, the point I was making in my post was that protein shakes are not a bad thing. They are "whack" because they are heavily marketed toward beginners as some kind of savior when they are not. My ectomorph comment was targeted for the skinny guys who need lots of extra calories to gain weight, thus protein shakes would help. Do you even know what an ectomorph is? In my opinion, they are good in a few situations but are overused and overhyped. In my experience, real food always trumps supplements and taste better. And yes, even good protein powder will give you gas. Undigested protein (or whatever it converts to) in your large intestine is... mmmm not good. My "experience" involves six years of lifting on various programs and diets, ranging from heavy powerlifting styles to high-rep high-volume bodybuilding programs. I've gained about 40 pounds of muscle over the years and slimmed my waistline considerably. I've used many supplements ranging from creatine to caffeine. I think I am qualified to comment on the effectiveness of certain protein powders.