Is this an accurate definition of the 'Sack Cut'?

So, after surfing the threads, here is what's going into my Jacket notes under "˜Sack Cut'.
Please be so kind as to weigh in with corrections;

Sack Cut:
Straight forward style:

SB, Natural shoulder lines with Minimal padding. No darting to pull the waist in. With the top button buttoned, the jacket hangs squarely and does not "˜V' or attempt to "˜fit' at the waist.

Traditional sacks are basic; 2, 2 1/2 or 3 button, single vent, notched lapels with patch / flap front pockets.
The sack cut can be used legitimately for anything from dressier suit jackets to heavy tweed sport coats, but the definition of the style favors the suit jacket.

More meticulous details would include edge stitching on the pockets, a hooked center vent, and lapped stitching on the jacket sleeves.

As a suit combination the traditional pants cut is also straight forward. Flat fronts (i.e., uncuffed) with no "˜remarkable' details.

(Brief historical notes to follow)

Does that about do it?

I can't think of anything to add.

Originally Posted by D'Varlet

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So, after surfing the threads, here is what's going into my Jacket notes under "˜Sack Cut'.
Please be so kind as to weigh in with corrections;

Sack Cut:
Straight forward style:

SB, Natural shoulder lines with Minimal padding. No darting to pull the waist in. With the top button buttoned, the jacket hangs squarely and does not "˜V' or attempt to "˜fit' at the waist.

Traditional sacks are basic; 2, 2 1/2 or 3 button, single vent, notched lapels with patch / flap front pockets.
The sack cut can be used legitimately for anything from dressier suit jackets to heavy tweed sport coats, but the definition of the style favors the suit jacket.

More meticulous details would include edge stitching on the pockets, a hooked center vent, and lapped stitching on the jacket sleeves.

As a suit combination the traditional pants cut is also straight forward. Flat fronts (i.e., uncuffed) with no "˜remarkable' details.

(Brief historical notes to follow)

Does that about do it?

The only thing wrong in there is when you say "Flat fronts (i.e., uncuffed)". The term flat fronts refers to whether the pants are pleated or not in the front, and has nothing to do with the type of cuffs. You should say that they have flat fronts AND uncuffed.

Looks like a good definition to me.

If you really want to learn about the "Sack Cut" check here:

AAAC Trad Forum, A/K/A "Sack Heaven"

Originally Posted by odoreater

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The only thing wrong in there is when you say "Flat fronts (i.e., uncuffed)". The term flat fronts refers to whether the pants are pleated or not in the front, and has nothing to do with the type of cuffs. You should say that they have flat fronts AND uncuffed.

My understanding is that the sack suit is usually found with flat front trousers with fat cuffs 1.75-2 inches (as opposed to the standard 1.5 inch).

Visit Andy's Trad Forum for more information.

Originally Posted by nerdykarim

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My understanding is that the sack suit is usually found with flat front trousers with fat cuffs 1.75-2 inches (as opposed to the standard 1.5 inch).

Visit Andy's Trad Forum for more information.


I'm pretty sure that sack suits are worn with uncuffed pants.

In any case, use of the phrase "flat fronts (i.e. uncuffed)" is wrong. "Flat front" refers to the front of the pant where as "uncuffed" refers to the cuff. The term "i.e.," is Latin for "id est" or "that is" and is used when the term after the i.e. means exactly the same thing as the term preceding the parantheses. So saying "Flat front (i.e. ucuffed)" is just plain wrong use of the "i.e."

What we call "2-1/2 button" is where the lapel rolls smoothly to the second button, that being the only one used. Sack coats are typically what we call a "3 roll 2" which means that the lapel folds over flat through the first button - the top buttonhole is often finished on the inside rather than the outside for this reason.

Originally Posted by odoreater

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I'm pretty sure that sack suits are worn with uncuffed pants.

In any case, use of the phrase "flat fronts (i.e. uncuffed)" is wrong. "Flat front" refers to the front of the pant where as "uncuffed" refers to the cuff. The term "i.e.," is Latin for "id est" or "that is" and is used when the term after the i.e. means exactly the same thing as the term preceding the parantheses. So saying "Flat front (i.e. ucuffed)" is just plain wrong use of the "i.e."

LOL!
Thanks for weighing in Odor, and sorry for the grammatical confusion!

I wrote it that way because in the little corner of the clothing world where I work, we only offer to cuff pleated pants.
We'll do cuffs on flat fronts for a customer at their request, but the shop considers it to be a fashion error, and doesn't want the staff to be on record as recommending it.

Being an industry rookie, I assumed that this was a fairly universal viewpoint. Hence, the 'i.e.'.
Perhaps I should put up a post on when to cuff flat front pants, as I seem to be taking the parameters for granted.

And yes, I think you're right about hems on the Sack Suits.
Thanks again!

What we call "2-1/2 button" is where the lapel rolls smoothly to the second button, that being the only one used. Sack coats are typically what we call a "3 roll 2" which means that the lapel folds over flat through the first button - the top buttonhole is often finished on the inside rather than the outside for this reason.

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Thanks J, I've adjusted the notes.

And thanks to all for the input. I will go to the Trad forum to investigate further!


D'V

No cuffs? Them's fightin' words to us [semi] trads.

jml90: \tNo cuffs? Them's fightin' words to us [semi] trads.

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Maybe so. I don't know!
I'm not having any luck sorting out the cuff rules on this one.

I've just finished looking at a post called 'To cuff or not to cuff', and it seems that outside of formal wear, no one can agree on what type of pants to cuff or when; regardless of ensemble.

Evidently the sack suit is not immune to the debate.
Shame too! I always prefer clarity.

Is there a 'Taste Maker' in the house?

Can we get a yeah or nea on cuffs with a sack? Any rules or traditions? I'll settle for a custom or a protocol if you've got one.
Any strange dictums based on the aberrant behavior of English Noblemen?

Any help at all?

Anybody?

LOL!

D'V

The way I see it, there are a couple issues at play.

1. Sack suit vs. Fashion (The sack suit is not fashionable. A different set of rules apply)
2. Sack suit vs. Trad (The Italians also wear "sacks" that are undarted but more suppressed at the waist. The rules regarding trousers may be different from those of American/Trad sack wearers)
3. Strict Trad vs. non strict trad (Strict trad, I think, means cuffs on everything but formalwear The trad forum has a lot of threads about this: (Flat front pants with cuffs, To cuff or not to cuff, etc.)

If I may ask, why are you compiling the information? Who is your audience?

Originally Posted by nerdykarim

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If I may ask, why are you compiling the information? Who is your audience?

No worries, ask away. I enjoy the company.
And thanks for your input on this one.

Just a student, really.
Trying to find all the ground rules and master the basics of dress wear.
Looking at everything : Tailored Construction, Alterations, Fitting, Styles, Outfitting, 'The Works'.

The only eventual audience will be retail customers (hopefully high-end) and potential employers. (hopefully higher end )
Mostly, I study becuase it's a great subject, and I enjoy the process.

Thanks again!
D'V

I don't know but when I think of sack suits I don't necessarily consider pant pleats or cuffs. I think of Brooks Brothers. I thing of a jacket with little or no waist suppression. If there are darts in the jacket I think of it more as a "hybrid". Pleats / no pleats and with or without cuffs are more personal preference to me and have little to do with whether it's a "sack" or not.

Originally Posted by Faded501s

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I don't know but when I think of sack suits I don't necessarily consider pant pleats or cuffs. I think of Brooks Brothers. I thing of a jacket with little or no waist suppression. If there are darts in the jacket I think of it more as a "hybrid". Pleats / no pleats and with or without cuffs are more personal preference to me and have little to do with whether it's a "sack" or not.

Yep. I think you've pretty much nailed it.

I'm back to my original assertion again:

SB, Natural shoulder lines with Minimal padding. No darting to pull the waist in. With the top button buttoned, the jacket hangs squarely and does not "˜V' or attempt to "˜fit' at the waist.

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Aside from that, it seems to be shaping up as a matter of individual preferences, and the tastes of a couple of different schools.

Thanks for weighing in.
D'V

^^^ my pleasure.

Just to add...from "The Ultimate Guide to Suits",

American (aka Sack Suit)
Historically an English cut dating to the Victorian era where it replaced the morning and frock coats. Originally a waistcoat, the sack's boxy, loose-fitting structure was often meant for outdoor activities like golfing, fishing, bicycling, etc. Also referred to as a lounge suit, the sack was considered casual wear until the late 1800's (1890 or so) when the sack became accepted business wear. With a matching vest, the 3-piece was known as a Ditto suit. In the early 1800's Beau Brummell and others started advocating a more fitted suit that typifies what we now call the English suit.

The sack is boxy in shape without darts (no tapering) and has relatively narrow lapels. Generally full-cut shoulders and pants. Tendency toward heavier materials; flannels, tweeds, worsteds. Linens in summer. Typified by solid or slightly patterned shirtings (stripes) with point collars or button downs and others. Examples of the American suit (sack) are Oxxford and Brooks Brothers

Taper - None to minimal
Padding - Slight to Moderate
Single vent
Buttons - 3 or 2
Hybrids might have some tapering (darts) and possibly 2 or no vents...a darted jacket with 2 vents would probably be considered English though.