Vass vs. Alfred Sargent "Handgrade"

fritzl · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by Edify, Inc

...

it's more about different philosophies and differences in the tradition of shoemaking.

fwiw, i prefer the VASS way.

Pliny · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by Edify, Inc

From what I can see from the pictures, the VASS uses a full insock lining, while the AS uses a half lining. It would be very easy to cover everything up with a full insock lining, rather than using a half and show off the real leather insole.

FWIW, IMHO the AS seems to have a better method of construction or pattern making, as the seams joining the quarter linings to the vamp linings on the VASS is visible while the AS has no visible joints, at least in the context of the picture.

Just in case, I am not insinuating that VASS is not using leather insoles, just that its easier to cover up any imperfections with a full sock lining, rather to trying to keep the insoles beautiful enough to show off.

astute observation Edify. The AS inside leather is also twice as thick, and somewhat softer. I like a robust shoe, solid - or to quote another contributor 'not ballet pumps'

alliswell · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by Pliny

astute observation Edify. The AS inside leather is also twice as thick, and somewhat softer. I like a robust shoe, solid - or to quote another contributor 'not ballet pumps'

If you want robust, you've got to go with Vass - even their sleekest shoe is solid, verging on heavy. If you want finish, go with the AS HG - the sample one I saw recently was better than anything I own from Vass or EG.

Edify Inc · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by fritzl

it's more about different philosophies and differences in the tradition of shoemaking.

fwiw, i prefer the VASS way.

Agreed, and that's really what matters most. I respect your opinion, even when my own tendencies lean towards the half sock.

Burton · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by upnorth

I'm sorry my reply made you think the way you did.

My point is that it is human nature to be thrilled by a new purchase but the novelty does wear out and for any business that extends credit, it becomes a challenge to have to chase after unpaid transactions. I did not intend for it to mean anything about your character.

I have also further clarified that this is not their standard practice but your point about them bending over backwards for their customer is well taken.

Upnorth,

Very thoughtful post. If you are interested in getting a great pair of traditionally made English handgrade shoes, you should speak with Chay at AS. I cannot see how AS would be able to build a business by letting people have shoes and pay for them later. Most bespoke, or MTM, work is done by progress payments.

On the other hand why someone would choose to compare these two brands of shoes, I cannot comprehend. Both are great makers of shoes who work in the traditional styles of their respective geographic regions. It is tantamound to asking, which is better fish or beef?

fritzl · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by Edify, Inc

Agreed, and that's really what matters most. I respect your opinion, even when my own tendencies lean towards the half sock.

can't wear it for fit reasons. that's all what matters for my personal situation.

though, that wasn't my point. agreed, that one has the tendencies to support the traditions and heritage of his region.

fritzl · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by Burton

Both are great makers of shoes who work in the traditional styles of their respective geographic regions.

exactly

Edify Inc · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by Pliny

astute observation Edify. The AS inside leather is also twice as thick, and somewhat softer. I like a robust shoe, solid - or to quote another contributor 'not ballet pumps'

By "inside leather", I assume you mean the leather insole under the sock lining? I would venture to say that it by all accounts could be softer and that may give the impression that it is thicker. However, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe that AS HGs are gemmed, as opposed to Vass whose welts are stitched to a leather holdfast. This leather holdfast alone would probably require a thicker insole by itself, I would say by at least 2mm. Note though that my numbers are not empirical.

I love both brands and would kill to own as many as some of you guys do. They both have very distinct styles, construction, and finishing values. I would agree with a previous poster that this comparison is quite a moot endeavour.

If anyone is interested, I prefer the AS simply because I am loving the finishing and overall sleeker look.

RSS · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by fritzl

thanks for the chuckle.

what's next? paprika and AS, just curious?
Given the shoes I'm seeing from Austria & Hungary ... I could easily give up England. Thanks again Fritzl for letting be a recipient of Operation Paprika!

fritzl · Dec 28, 2010

Originally Posted by RSS

Given the shoes I'm seeing from Austria & Hungary ... I could easily give up England. Thanks again Fritzl for letting be a recipient of Operation Paprika!

you're welcome.

wear them in good health and thank you for supporting my cause.

Pliny · Dec 29, 2010

Originally Posted by Edify, Inc

By "inside leather", I assume you mean the leather insole under the sock lining? I would venture to say that it by all accounts could be softer and that may give the impression that it is thicker. However, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe that AS HGs are gemmed, as opposed to Vass whose welts are stitched to a leather holdfast. This leather holdfast alone would probably require a thicker insole by itself, I would say by at least 2mm. Note though that my numbers are not empirical..

Yes the leather insole is thicker (and softer) but the lining too is thicker on the AS. I think u are right, the AS are 'gemmed', but I'm not convinced this is a real problem - more that the hand stitched welting of Vass is simply more consistent with the romance of having shoes made the same way they were a hundred years ago. Cusey describes gemming as "[a procedure where] a rib made of stiffened linen tape can be glued (gemmed) onto the insole. This sounds like a shoddy procedure unlikely to produce a quality shoe, but this is not the case. When done properly, the gemming is extremely secure and long-lived, and the linen rib can take as many reweltings as a cut-and-turned rib".
Good enough for me.

Xenon · Dec 29, 2010

Originally Posted by Edify, Inc

By "inside leather", I assume you mean the leather insole under the sock lining? I would venture to say that it by all accounts could be softer and that may give the impression that it is thicker. However, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe that AS HGs are gemmed, as opposed to Vass whose welts are stitched to a leather holdfast. This leather holdfast alone would probably require a thicker insole by itself, I would say by at least 2mm. Note though that my numbers are not empirical.

I love both brands and would kill to own as many as some of you guys do. They both have very distinct styles, construction, and finishing values. I would agree with a previous poster that this comparison is quite a moot endeavour.

If anyone is interested, I prefer the AS simply because I am loving the finishing and overall sleeker look.

In the Vass, is the holdfast carved out of the insole or is the insole edge cut and turned down?
Why do I remeber reading somewhere that Vass used a slightly different form of hand welting from the traditional english approach? (can't find the thread now)

Vass vs. Alfred Sargent "Handgrade"

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