Lateness/tardiness policies...

Originally Posted by unjung

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I'm in meetings until 8 p.m. regularly, waste hours in airports and drive highways in blizzards. If I don't show up until 8:30 a.m. occasionally, get bent.
this. i spend weeks on end on offshore facilities working 14 hour days away from family and friends. fly in helicopters in dangerous conditions. spend hours in hotels and airports. i turn up to work when i like. i am early 95% of the time but if my boss ever said anything about 10 or so days i am late, id be outraged. i use my internal gauge to sense if i'm taking the piss or not. i know i put in a lot more than i get out. i dont know about all your working arrangements but someone getting fired for tardiness would have a much bigger negative effect on morale than the tardiness ever caused. everyone at my work is too busy doing their own work to keep tabs on when everyone else is working.

Originally Posted by unjung

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I'm in meetings until 8 p.m. regularly, waste hours in airports and drive highways in blizzards. If I don't show up until 8:30 a.m. occasionally, get bent.

It all goes back to what type of work you do and how the office is structured. I also don't think anyone took a job without knowing what is expected of them so having to work late or travel is something you should have known about when you accecpted the position.

In my office even if we deal with the above we are still expected to be to work on time. But every office and profession is different.

Originally Posted by Mr Herbert

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im astounded by the replies in this thread.

I'm astounded too, in the opposite direction.

When you take a job, you agree to do the entire job - the work, the pay, and the hours. If you have a problem with the pay, it isn't okay to steal to make up the difference. If you have a problem with the work, it's not okay to not do it and still keep the job. And if you can't work the agreed-on hours, it's not okay to be late. all the time.

People feel justified in quitting or, more often, suing when the employer doesn't hold up his end of the deal, like pay, vacation, or working conditions. The employer is justified in taking action if you're not holding up your end of the agreement. Trust me, it's your worst employee that's most insistent that they get everything they have coming to them in a timely manner - Mr. Late is a punctuality nazi when it's his pay check that's running behind.

If business allows, I'm all for adjusting the schedule - making a new, mutual agreement that both parties will stand by (I've done it for two of my team this year); but if it doesn't work for both parties, the relationship has to end.

Originally Posted by epb

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I'm astounded too, in the opposite direction.

When you take a job, you agree to do the entire job - the work, the pay, and the hours. If you have a problem with the pay, it isn't okay to steal to make up the difference. If you have a problem with the work, it's not okay to not do it and still keep the job. And if you can't work the agreed-on hours

I think the crux of the issue here is that the hours are not / were not ever "agreed" on. The OP seems to be wondering how he can retroactively set such an agreement. IMHO, in a truly professional environment, the hours are meaningless - that's why you're paid a salary, instead of by the hour. If you're paying somebody a fixed amount to get the job done, whatever it takes (a salary), then the hours should be irrelevant.

Interesting legal question RE: wage and hour law. I wonder if you have a strictly set schedule (say, 9 to 5), do you open yourself to an overtime claim if you ever ask salaried employees to stay past 5:00?

Originally Posted by tj100

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Interesting legal question RE: wage and hour law. I wonder if you have a strictly set schedule (say, 9 to 5), do you open yourself to an overtime claim if you ever ask salaried employees to stay past 5:00?

Yes. Most companies have provisions against this, and have contracts stating that overtime is when a salaried person hits X hours in a week.

Originally Posted by deadly7

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Yes. Most companies have provisions against this, and have contracts stating that overtime is when a salaried person hits X hours in a week.
My company doesn't. And working late, from home, on weekends is a huge part of the culture here.

Provided meetings aren't missed and work gets done, I really don't care when people show up. Burn out from overworking is a much greater threat anyways.

Originally Posted by tj100

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IMHO, in a truly professional environment, the hours are meaningless - that's why you're paid a salary, instead of by the hour.?

The legal profession largely revolves around how many hours you are able to bill clients within the period of time it reasonably takes to conclude the litigation/transaction.

Medical doctors (in diagnosis, at least) and psychiatrists (in therapy, at least) also bill by the hour because the value they add is not a function of their ability to accomplish a well-defined 'task', per se, but rather of their training, education, and ability to apply acquired skills (which themselves constitute a scarce asset due to barriers of entry) to their client's issue.

As an employer of any of these professionals, you have to balance the quality of their product against the speed with which they can produce that product. If the firm isn't making this calculation, they're not maximizing utility. If you run a business (in America, at least) w/o a concern to maximizing utility, you won't be in business very long.

Originally Posted by Dewi

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Most of the habitually late fuckups I was in school with were standard issue frat-tastic toolbags.

Sound like Lambda Chis. My fraternity only gave bids to winners.

Originally Posted by matt22616

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The legal profession largely revolves around how many hours you are able to bill clients within the period of time it reasonably takes to conclude the litigation/transaction.

Medical doctors (in diagnosis, at least) and psychiatrists (in therapy, at least) also bill by the hour because the value they add is not a function of their ability to accomplish a well-defined 'task', per se, but rather of their training, education, and ability to apply acquired skills (which themselves constitute a scarce asset due to barriers of entry) to their client's issue.

They bill by the hour, but most lawyers/doctors/consultants/accountants etc. don't get paid by the hour. And what the client is buying is actually an hour of advice. It's effectively how law firms make their money - they bill by the hour (and encourage their employees to work as many hours as possible), but pay a fixed rate.

Originally Posted by v1100110

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My company doesn't. And working late, from home, on weekends is a huge part of the culture here.

But do they have a strict schedule (i.e. you must be in by 9:00am). My guess is that this would open one up to a wage & hour claim. Where there are no fixed hours, they can claim that it isn't their fault that you're working 100 hours a week...

The question I would ask: Does the employee get his/her work done? If yes, there is no problem.

Originally Posted by tj100

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But do they have a strict schedule (i.e. you must be in by 9:00am). My guess is that this would open one up to a wage & hour claim. Where there are no fixed hours, they can claim that it isn't their fault that you're working 100 hours a week...

Yes, the company has a strict schedule, but It depends on who you work under for how strictly it is imposed.

Originally Posted by matt22616

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Sound like Lambda Chis. My fraternity only gave bids to winners.
Lol, have not met a single "Lamda Chi" I'm aware, as I don't really go around asking. But, I hope you realize how greatly Fraternity chapter can vary greatly from school to school, chapter to chapter as far as size, actions, reputation, ect. Douchebags can be found almost anywhere, even on SF.

Originally Posted by tj100

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They bill by the hour, but most lawyers/doctors/consultants/accountants etc. don't get paid by the hour. And what the client is buying is actually an hour of advice. It's effectively how law firms make their money - they bill by the hour (and encourage their employees to work as many hours as possible), but pay a fixed rate.

Firms require their attorneys to meet a certain quota of billable hours every year (e.g., 2000 hours). Whether or not a particular attorney meets his or her quota, and/or by how much he or she may exceed that quota, determines whether or not that attorney advances, or is fired.

An attorney who does not exceed the expectations of their manager (the perceived quantity/quality quotient of billable hours) is most often fired after five to seven years. It is not a matter of the attorney working to KEEP his/her job, it is a matter of the attorney working to TAKE someone else's job. By "padding" your record w/ billable hours, five years may stretch into seven. Not padding in the sense of stealing, but in the sense of staying at the office until 11 in order to compensate for the fact that your hours are only worth 75% of your colleague's.