Please show me your black calf Cleverley shoe

Originally Posted by medwards

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There's the rub. Bespoke footwear is made to meet the unique needs and measurements of a single customer. A shoe that really provides the best fit and comfort closely conforms to the shape and mechanics of one's actual foot. Talented shoemakers can certainly use their skills to mitigate against ungainliness, but there is a tradeoff between look/style and comfort. Each of us has to determine where that line is, but there are certainly limits. In my own case, my right foot is a bit wider than my left, but more importantly my feet -- not terribly large -- are rather wide in the forefoot. This means there is only the shortest of distance between the widest part of my foot and the tip of my toe. It simply isn't possible to construct a shoe that matches this shape and has the sleekness some would favor or a keenly chiseled toe so very much in vogue, without compromising fit to a large degree. Inasmuch as my longest standing shoemaker (Cleverley) places a primacy on fit, they would undoubtedly caution me away from shoes and styles that would not be best for my particular foot. Other shoemakers have a somewhat different approach. As Tony Gaziano explained to manton in a January 2005 interview: "The service is for the customer so if he prefers shape over fit then I will veer more towards the aesthetics and fit is priority then I will still try to give good aesthetics but concentrate more on the fit, I prefer aesthetics. I love design and creation." That is not to say that Tony disregards fit, simply that he tries to strike a balance.


I have a similar problem. My left foot is wider and flatter than my right. I have a pair of chisel toed shoe by G&G which fits the right perfectly well but is problematic with the left. The leather is very soft and I wore them for about a year to see if breaking it in would solve the issue. But it didn't and TG currently has them for adjustments. For my second pair, TG suggested a soft square toe would lead to a better fit. We'll see how it turns out.

For reference, most RTW shoes for me are a compromise b/c my left foot is a little more than 1 full size bigger than the right.

Originally Posted by medwards

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there are a lucky few whose feet easily accomodate the most slender and elegant of styles. They are most fortunate. For the rest of us, the choice remains a bit of a trade-off. I fear that a number of individuals expect that a bespoke shoemaker can readily accomplish a perfect fit in any style...and these individuals may therefore be rather disappointed in the end. In any event, it is something to think about.

i'm not intended to take such a general statement in consideration.

but, it's interesting that you're patronizing the styling issue, since you always said: fit is paramount.

am i missing something here?

Originally Posted by fritzl

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i'm not intended to take such a general statement in consideration. but, it's interesting that you're patronizing the styling issue, since you always said: fit is paramount.
am i missing something here?

No, I do believe that fit is parmount. However, I think you can see from my own choices -- and I am quite pleased with the "style" of the shoes I have had made for me over the years -- that I do value design and appearance as well. I simply meant that the shape of some individuals' feet is better able to accomodate certain approaches...and some of those approaches (like the keenly chiseled toe or a very long, slender line) seem very much in favor these days. Perhaps I didn't express that as well as I should have. I hope this helps.

Originally Posted by medwards

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No, I do believe that fit is parmount. However, I think you can see from my own choices -- and I am quite pleased with the "style" of the shoes I have had made for me over the years -- that I do value design and appearance as well.

i was not questioning yor pow.

certainly you do. let's put it that way. i'm not overly fond of the english (shoe) style in general. your cleverlys come closest to what i would consider, if i would go the english route. out of the "english bespoke club", there are only the shoes paul davies made for dopey(he's missed, does anybodey know?) i like better.

Originally Posted by medwards

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I simply meant that the shape of some individuals' feet is better able to accomodate certain approaches...and some of those approaches (like the keenly chiseled toe or a very long, slender line) seem very much in favor these days.

i hear what you are saying.

Originally Posted by medwards

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Another Forum member just reminded me of an image I posted a few years back that showed the apparent difference in my Cleverley versus Gaziano shoes. The black calf imitation brogue Cleverley's on the left and the full brogued G&G Adelaides on the right were both made for me around the same time...and both actually fit quite well. However, you can clearly see the difference in look between the two. The shoes Tony made give the appearance of being a full size larger than the Cleverleys.



Given the number of queries I have received, I should note that while these two shoes look to be of such different sizes, they both fit quite well. Cleverley has been making for me for a very long time and has fashioned most of my footwear. Over the years we have continued to tweak my last and it is as close to perfect as I can imagine. The Tony Gaziano-made shoes also fit quite well, just a bit differently. Please note that this was a conscious choice to craft them like this. Tony felt that a longer, somewhat larger shoe would provide a more appropriate backdrop for the design and the amount of broguing that I desired, added some substance and balance, and allowed a longer, more balanced line. I cannot explain how two such seemly different shoes can both fit well, but they do.

Originally Posted by fritzl

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your cleverlys come closest to what i would consider, if i would go the english route. out of the "english bespoke club", there are only the shoes paul davies made for dopey(he's missed, does anybodey know?) i like better.

Thank you. Perhaps is not surprising that you find Paul Davies' work of some similarity. Mr Davies worked for Cleverley for quite some time and, in fact, had a hand in crafting a number of my shoes. That said, I do understand and respect your preferences.

Originally Posted by fritzl

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out of the "english bespoke club", there are only the shoes paul davies made for dopey(he's missed, does anybodey know?) i like better.

The Dwarf exists in the PM-o-sphere, and also on the Alden Lounge.

So, he is not with Moo.


- B

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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The Dwarf exists in the PM-o-sphere, and also on the Alden Lounge.

So, he is not with Moo.
- B

thank you.

will try to reach him. london lounge is not an option...

Originally Posted by cdmoore1855

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I should add that that my comment was not taking fit into consideration, but merely based on the construction

I find it impossible to remove fit from an assessment of the quality of a bespoke shoemaker. If he doesn't get the fit right, nothing else really matters. There seems to be little question that this is a strong point for Cleverley and a bit more questionable for G&G.

Originally Posted by cdmoore1855

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I have seen numerous examples of both and of course seen many pics on this forum. I have seen some shoes made by cleverley that Tony would unlikely provide as a finished shoe. Russia leather shoes with several cracks in the skin (yes I know this stuff is old but there are good skins out there without cracks), there is also another shoe with the nail poking through the welt.

I would note that there have been many postings on this and other fora that raise concerns about specific G&G shoes as well -- awkward sole treatments, uneven stitching, problems with color, unacceptable delays in delivery. I trust that in both instances (Cleverley and G&G) such problems are few and far between and that both shoemakers readily resolve any problems or mistakes.

Originally Posted by cdmoore1855

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As far as the look, yes this is subjective but i being younger prefer the sleeker lines of a G&G shoe. Also another thing I see is that Cleverley seldom do a seamless heel, even on a derby or norwegian where the shoe is stitched at the front they will do a poor heal seem same as a ready to wear shoe. They could at the very least Skin stitch it to make it more subtle.I have some Russia Leather norwegians on order from Tony, I asked for them to made with a seamless heel, he said no problem as long as the full skin is of high enough quality to use the whole piece without compromising the finished product. He won't use a lesser quality skin or one with cracks in it.

The question of a seamless heel appears to me to be simply a matter of taste and preference. There is nothing "superior" to a seamless heel. There is little question that Cleverley's default approach is very traditional in look and construction and that G&G prefers a more "modern" look and likes to experiment with various approaches. But Cleverley certainly can and will make a seamless heel just as G&G can make one with a seam. In fact, that is exactly how G&G make the vast, vast majority of their shoes!

I am very glad you are such a loyal G&G customer and that you have such very high regard for their work. You obviously made that choice because you prefer their approach and believe they make a better product. But I still don't buy the idea that they make a "far superior" shoe nor does that seem to be the conclusion of some of the most knowledgeable members of this Forum who have actually used both shoemakers.

In any event, I do hope all of your eighteen pair of bespoke G&G shoes turn out well.

One more note regarding a seamless heel. I have just been looking at the exquisite John Lobb Paris bespoke shoes that so many people are now citing as the finest shoes posted on this Forum. I would call your attention to the fact that the heals are not seamless -- yet the shoes are indeed wonderful. No one seriously questions the superlative craftsmanship involved, the superior construction, or the aesthetic beauty.

Returning to the original inquiry, here is a pair of rather casual Cleverley monkstraps in black calf:

I really like the simplicity and clean lines of these monks. Seems as if they could be work very casually as well as on more formal occasions. I have never been a big monk fan, but there is an air of sophistication about these that I find rather appealing.

These just happened to arrive today!

Black punch caps on the chisel-toe last...

Medwards & APortnoy: What are your thoughts about the differences between the rounded versus chiseled toe caps? Why did you go the route you did? Inquiring minds want to know.

Originally Posted by MarquisMagic

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Medwards & APortnoy: What are your thoughts about the differences between the rounded versus chiseled toe caps? Why did you go the route you did? Inquiring minds want to know.


I have always favored the rounded toe for aesthetic reasons as well as some practicality in terms of fit in my own specific case. My foot is rather wide in the forefoot and to craft an elegant chisel is -- to my eye -- a bit of a challenge and detracts a bit from the look and feel I like to achieve. To attain the sleekness and neatness I generally desire means elongating the shoe a bit to accomate keep the chisel in proportion and that creates certain trade-offs. I should also note that when I began availing myself of Cleverley's services, the chisel-toe was not really an approach they took or recommended...even though George Cleverley was still coming in once a week or so. Whether that was because they were bound by the traditional New & Lingwood look or other factors I cannot say. It is only after they established themselves as Cleverley in the mid-1990's that the "Cleverely toe" come into prominence among their offerings. By then, I had been a customer for quite some time and had no interest or desire in changing my style. That said, the chiseled toe can be quite elegant and would obviously be a good choice for many. As they say, to each his own.