Sartorial mythbusting

The very fact that drape attracts as much controversy and emotive discussion is in itself very odd. It's just one period cutting style. Just one. It went out of fashion decades ago, and by all rights should be obscure period costume by now fit for eccentric film noir era retronostalgics who want to look like walking Apparel Arts fashion plates. Nothing wrong with that of course. Yet on the internet suddenly, far from it being a minority interest, people take sides in "drape wars" as though it were black and white, one half vs the other. That in itself suggests that drape is being, in Des Merrion's words, "rammed down people's throats". I think it is because tailors are getting these internet informed potential clients all primed up with this buzz word "drape" all over the world. It is a real phenomenon. It is the power of the internet. It needs to be questioned if only to give a more balanced perspective of things.

Originally Posted by manofstyle

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Ridiculous. I'm sure the vast majority of A&S customers are thrilled with their finished garments and casual & informed observers would say that they look great too.

If you guys are happy despite those more critical eyes being able to spot numerous cutting errors that are worse than amateurish, that's up to you. If it makes you overjoyed go for it, pay your thousands of pounds for it. It's your choice. However, note that Jeffery wrote:

So either there was once a maverick cutter at A&S whose work I can appreciate, or there was once a house style infinitely more palatable than what is being done now, which is possibly lost in time.

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Yes, there probably was a time. Fortunately, you can still see that today - in the work of Edwin DeBoise. He is Scholte's true heir. So once again, I will say: let those who are truly worthy of it get the rightful praise they have earned. Whether the drape cut is your taste, that's up to you, just like choosing between a fine Japanese or an Italian restaurant. However, Edwin is at that level where you can forget technical matters and just enjoy debating endlessly about taste.

Originally Posted by Sator

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The very fact that drape attracts as much controversy and emotive discussion is in itself very odd. It's just one period cutting style. Just one. It went out of fashion decades ago, and by all rights should be obscure period costume by now fit for eccentric film noir era retronostalgics who want to look like walking Apparel Arts fashion plates. Nothing wrong with that of course. Yet on the internet suddenly, far from it being a minority interest, people take sides in "drape wars" as though it were black and white, one half vs the other. That in itself suggests that drape is being, in Des Merrion's words, "rammed down people's throats". I think it is because tailors are getting these internet informed potential clients all primed up with this buzz word "drape" all over the world. It is a real phenomenon. It is the power of the internet. It needs to be questioned if only to give a more balanced perspective of things.

You may need to rephrase the sentence were you are refering to walking around like a AA fashion plate. Just a suggestion...

Originally Posted by Sator

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obscure period costume by now fit for eccentric film noir era retronostalgics who want to look like walking Apparel Arts fashion plates.

This is really hilarious, given that you are the only person I know of who took an Apparel Arts plate to his tailor, his shirtmaker, and into a haberdasher, and had it copied exactly to the last detail.

Totally unsuccessfully, I might add. If only it did rise to the level of "obscure period costume," that would be an improvement.

Originally Posted by Sator

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The very fact that drape attracts as much controversy and emotive discussion is in itself very odd.

I don't think it's very odd. The drape cut is the preferered cut on one of the clothing forums most prolific posters, therefore they have become inextricably linked in posters minds. It's guilty by association if you like.

From a stylistic point of view, I don't like drape cuts, I prefer something leaner. However, others like the cut, and that's fine by me. The only thing I don't like is when a tailor sends a client out of the shop with a poorly tailored suit and that can happen irrespective of whatever 'school' of tailoring the tailor belongs too or beleives in.

Originally Posted by Manton

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This is really hilarious, given that you are the only person I know of who took an Apparel Arts plate to his tailor, his shirtmaker, and into a haberdasher, and had it copied exactly to the last detail.

This was funny.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Totally unsuccessfully, I might add. If only it did rise to the level of "obscure period costume," that would be an improvement.

This was a bit mean.


- B

Originally Posted by George

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From a stylistic point of view, I don't like drape cuts, I prefer something leaner. However, others like the cut, and that's fine by me. The only thing I don't like is when a tailor sends a client out of the shop with a poorly tailored suit and that can happen irrespective of whatever 'school' of tailoring the tailor belongs too or beleives in.

Try not to ruin the discussion by being so normal.


- B

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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Try not to ruin the discussion by being so normal.

- B


Ok, Everyone who wears a drape cut looks ****...

Better....

I also think, however, that you are conjuring up a Drapist Cabal with Manton and Alden as its Majordomos which doesn't exist.

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1.\tBlack Chinese helicopters, flying UN colors, are secreting AS tailors into America to corrupt its youth.
2.\tRecently revealed documents prove it was Frederick Scholte on the grassy knoll.
3.\tBigfoot was recently spotted on Old Burlington Street
4.\tAn incurable drape cut virus was transported to Rosewell, New Mexico in 1947.
5.\tAll the members of the New World Order are clients of drape

To Matt's excellent point, there is too much Twilight Zone going on here and not enough STYLEforum.

Cheers

M Alden
Co-conspirator
www.dresswithstyle.com

Originally Posted by M. Alden

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1.\tBlack Chinese helicopters, flying UN colors, are secreting AS tailors into America to corrupt its youth.
2.\tRecently revealed documents prove it was Frederick Scholte on the grassy knoll.
3.\tBigfoot was recently spotted on Old Burlington Street
4.\tAn incurable drape cut virus was transported to Rosewell, New Mexico in 1947.
5.\tAll the members of the New World Order are clients of drape

To Matt's excellent point, there is too much Twilight Zone going on here and not enough STYLEforum.

Cheers

M Alden
Co-conspirator
www.dresswithstyle.com

No 5. doesn't sound that implausable given their client list.

Originally Posted by M. Alden

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4.\tAn incurable drape cut virus was transported to Rosewell, New Mexico in 1947.

Do you know the Florentine tailor Mario Zuccala? No?

If you did, you would not joke about this. And no, he did not cut a soft, draped jacket...more like this:




- B

So, just to stay up to date on the "substance" of this thread, such as it is:

1) whnay's coat has a flaw, which does not bother him to much (though it does a little) and which is being addressed by the firm.

2) Other people are not that bothered by the flaw and think the coat looks good on him.

3) A few people are bothered by the flaw, either because they are tailors and cannot stand to see a technical mistake like that, or because they hate A&S and like to seize on any evidence that they can to bash the firm.

4) A genuinely bad A&S example was posted. A&S proponents were accused of defending even that, despite the fact that they (we) all acknowledged that it is bad.

5) Other A&S examples were posted which do not appear to be bad, but which A&S h8ers assure us are bad, even though they cannot say why.

6) So, on the basis of whnay's misaligned stripes and the other dudes' very bad back, we are all supposed to h8 A&S, and anyone who doesn't is in denial and under the spell of marketing mystique.

Did I leave anything out?

Originally Posted by George

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Ok, Everyone who wears a drape cut looks ****... Better....

This was funny, a bit mean and rather accurate.

Originally Posted by M. Alden

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1.\tBlack Chinese helicopters, flying UN colors, are secreting AS tailors into America to corrupt its youth.
2.\tRecently revealed documents prove it was Frederick Scholte on the grassy knoll.
3.\tBigfoot was recently spotted on Old Burlington Street
4.\tAn incurable drape cut virus was transported to Rosewell, New Mexico in 1947.
5.\tAll the members of the New World Order are clients of drape

To Matt's excellent point, there is too much Twilight Zone going on here and not enough STYLEforum.

Cheers

M Alden
Co-conspirator
www.dresswithstyle.com



You have no power here- begone, before somebody drops her house on YOU!

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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How about if I substitute the words "recently strident" for the word "bitter?"

I respect (and am also entertained by, which is a fine quality beloved in any good cocktail party) the amateur vigor and investigatatory energy you put into explicating the history and practice of tailoring. None can match you...and you host a great geeky forum. I also think, however, that you are conjuring up a Drapist Cabal with Manton and Alden as its Majordomos which doesn't exist.
Do you really have any basis for these claims, or has someone with too much time on their hands fabricated them for you?

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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There is a vast difference between preference and prosecution. That one statement in Manton's book about the superiority of a draped cut should be taken within the context of its overtly facetious voice. And other comments by one or two contemporary tailors should be discounted as ham-handed self promotion. And Flusser is Flusser. Other than that, it seems to me that even at the extremes, people are simply describing what they like and not being prescriptive or normative.
Again, are these your words? Can we see the pm drafts?

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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If I look at the guys who wear softly tailored clothes, it's a fairly level headed bunch among whom are some sophisticated dressers with wide familiarity of different tailoring styles. None that I can tell have an agenda. - B
Unless this is written tongue and cheek (your tongue, someone else's cheeks) it displays a detachment from reality.