Bespoke: The Beginning of the End

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Well, we clearly have very different views on what has happened here. It would be waste of time to exchange accusations of each other's biases, since obviously neither you nor I believe we have any with respect to this thread. However, I will say this: the fact that you had nothing to do with my discussion with David, and interjected with multi-paragraph analyses of my motivations and character, makes it seem a tad bit hypocritical to be accusing me of "hectoring and dogged persistence."
This isn't quite accurate, and you're overstating again; the "multi-paragraph" bit was really largely given over to my description of how I perceived the exchange and my perceptions of your statements and David's. I think there was only really one sentence in one paragraph (which you quoted) where I speculated on your motivations.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Is it that you just have a need to be right? I'd like to extend the good faith that you are merely discussing what you genuinely think, but I'd appreciate it if you did the same.
I'm more than happy to agree to disagree with you. I don't have anything to "prove"; as far as I'm concerned I'm simply stating my opinion. You can dislike my opinion and disagree with me - it's really no skin off of my back. I don't doubt that you are stating what you genuinely think, as am I. Why would I be motivated to do anything else? I think I've been quite forthright in saying that I found your statements/tone objectionable in this case. There is nothing "right" or "wrong" about that - it's simply my reaction to your posts.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I remain resolutely proud of my participation in that thread, actually. The world is better off with fewer divots and divets.
Fair enough. I came down on the side thinking that you'd really gone over the top. We had gotten your point, and didn't need to hear it again and again and again.

Originally Posted by UnFacconable

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I'll bite on David's behalf. When you said the following, it came across as verbal batter, as I understand academe's use of the term: I haven't interpreted David to be pompous or to couch his comments with grandiose claims. He's merely said that he was hurt that the client didn't wish to have his label because he considered himself an artist. You are the one who fixated on the qualifications for use of the term "artist" (apparently David isn't "bona fide" in your mind). David was saying how he felt, and you decided to go beyond that and attack for reasons that I (and academe apparently) do not understand. It's fine with me if you have a vendetta against David, but it does everyone a disservice when you mask it.
+ 1 It's starting to remind me of the endless Manton vs. FNB bickering. I wish there were a special forum that they could just go at it and not intrude on the rest of us. I've just stopped reading either of their posts after a while, and perhaps will stop reading Foo and David's posts, anytime they're writing in the same thread. I need to make use of that "ignore" or "mask" function... I should probably have stayed out of it this time, too, but it just got on my nerves I'm afraid... ...and now I will say no more, because it just isn't really worth any more of my time!

Originally Posted by academe

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It's starting to remind me of the endless Manton vs. FNB bickering. I wish there were a special forum that they could just go at it and not intrude on the rest of us. I've just stopped reading either of their posts after a while, and perhaps will stop reading Foo and David's posts, anytime they're writing in the same thread. I need to make use of that "ignore" or "mask" function... I should probably have stayed out of it this time, too, but it just got on my nerves I'm afraid...

Look, I've been very clear about what I think and why. That David happens to think very much the opposite in many cases, and I am willing to engage him, does not mean I have a vendetta against him. If you follow how this discussion developed, David was the one who turned it personal by questioning my motives rather than responding to my comments. The only things I've questioned or attacked that could be personal to him were those that he submitted for discussion himself.

Originally Posted by radicaldog

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Where did you get that number? My parents live in a small town in central Italy, population about fifty-thousand. The town has four bespoke tailors, as far as I know. I tried two, with good results.

A Style Forum member posted a list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy a while back. I copied that list to one of my Microsoft Word 2003 Accounts off line. Here is the list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy (some of the make tailored clothing, some of the make shirts, some of them make footwear and some of them make accessories) that is currently in existence:

1. Sartoria Gaetano Aloisio
2. Salvatore Ambrosi and Gennaro Solito
3. Daniele Arcaio
4. Lemmi Augusto
5. Stefano Bemer
6. Berluti
7. Riccardo Freccia Bestetti
8. Bontoni
9. Augusto Caraceni Milano
10. Domenico Caraceni Roma
11. Ferdinando Caraceni Milano
12. Galliano Caraceni Milano
13. Giovanni Celentano
14. Aimi Claudio & Gigliotti Franco
15. Vittorio Coccurello
16. Como
17. Sartoria Marco Costantini
18. Sartoria Carmelo Crimi
19. Andrea Donadio
20. Sartoria Ferrari (not to be confused with the car brand)
21. Sartoria Formosa
22. Sartoria Fratelli
23. Sutor Gatto
24. Silvano Lattanzi
25. Gaetano Lentini
26. Liverano & Liverano
27. Egidio Marchioro
28. Gianni Margliano
29. Anna Matuozzo
30. Sartoria Antonio Panico Napoli
31. Sartoria Antonio Panico Roma
32. Franco Parmelli
33. Peron & Peron
34. Sartoria Enzo Pirozzi
35. Franco Puppato
36. Rubinacci Milano
37. Rubinacci Napoli
38. Pasquale Sabino
39. Franco Sagripanti
40. Spiriti Sarto
41. Sciamat
42. Siniscalchi
43. Mimmo Siviglia
44. Pierro Tedde
45. Sartoria Tonghi
46. Roberto Ugolini
47. Mario Zuccala

I made a mistake earlier. The number of custom tailors throughout Italy that are currently in existence is 47, not 45.

Thanks for this; quite a good resource...

Originally Posted by OxxfordSJLINY

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A Style Forum member posted a list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy a while back. I copied that list to one of my Microsoft Word 2003 Accounts off line. Here is the list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy (some of the make tailored clothing, some of the make shirts, some of them make footwear and some of them make accessories) that is currently in existence:

1. Sartoria Gaetano Aloisio
2. Salvatore Ambrosi and Gennaro Solito
3. Daniele Arcaio
4. Lemmi Augusto
5. Stefano Bemer
6. Berluti
7. Riccardo Freccia Bestetti
8. Bontoni
9. A. Caraceni Milano
10. B. Caraceni Milano
11. C. Caraceni Milano
12. Domenico Caraceni Roma
13. F. Caraceni Milano
14. Giovanni Celentano
15. Aimi Claudio & Gigliotti Franco
16. Vittorio Coccurello
17. Como
18. Sartoria Marco Costantini
19. Sartoria Carmelo Crimi
20. Andrea Donadio
21. Sartoria Ferrari (not to be confused with the car brand)
22. Sartoria Formosa
23. Sartoria Fratelli
24. Sutor Gatto
25. Silvano Lattanzi
26. Gaetano Lentini
27. Liverano & Liverano
28. Egidio Marchioro
29. Gianni Margliano
30. Anna Matuozzo
31. Sartoria Antonio Panico Napoli
32. Sartoria Antonio Panico Roma
33. Franco Parmelli
34. Peron & Peron
35. Sartoria Enzo Pirozzi
36. Franco Puppato
37. Rubinacci Milano
38. Rubinacci Napoli
39. Pasquale Sabino
40. Franco Sagripanti
41. Spiriti Sarto
42. Sciamat
43. Siniscalchi
44. Mimmo Siviglia
45. Pierro Tedde
46. Sartoria Tonghi
47. Roberto Ugolini

I made a mistake earlier. The number of custom tailors throughout Italy that are currently in existence is 47, not 45.

Originally Posted by academe

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Thanks for this; quite a good resource...

You are dearly and sincerely welcome, academe!

Originally Posted by David Reeves

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He asked specifically not to have my label inside the shirt....that kinda hurt.

All this for one $225 shirt which is made in England and shipped to NYC.


I should add another potential apology here. I inferred from the above post that David has the shirts made elsewhere (i.e. he talks about details with the client and someone else in England makes the shirt) in which case I still struggle to understand why he would be hurt if the client doesn't want it to say "David Reeves". Frankly, being able to measure someone for a shirt and showing them cloth when you've done the same thing many times before doesn't count as "artistic" in my book.

However, it occurred to me that David may actually be in England making the shirts himself and shipping them to the client in the US (having done the consultation via phone, email, etc.). In this case I sincerely apologise and can see his point.

Just wanted to hold my hands up if I'm wrong. Either way, I realise that this is someone's livelihood (and literally none of my business) and so I'm now going to butt out.

Originally Posted by OxxfordSJLINY

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A Style Forum member posted a list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy a while back. I copied that list to one of my Microsoft Word 2003 Accounts off line. Here is the list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy (some of the make tailored clothing, some of the make shirts, some of them make footwear and some of them make accessories) that is currently in existence: 1. Sartoria Gaetano Aloisio 2. Salvatore Ambrosi and Gennaro Solito 3. Daniele Arcaio 4. Lemmi Augusto 5. Stefano Bemer 6. Berluti 7. Riccardo Freccia Bestetti 8. Bontoni 9. A. Caraceni Milano 10. B. Caraceni Milano 11. C. Caraceni Milano 12. Domenico Caraceni Roma 13. F. Caraceni Milano 14. Giovanni Celentano 15. Aimi Claudio & Gigliotti Franco 16. Vittorio Coccurello 17. Como 18. Sartoria Marco Costantini 19. Sartoria Carmelo Crimi 20. Andrea Donadio 21. Sartoria Ferrari (not to be confused with the car brand) 22. Sartoria Formosa 23. Sartoria Fratelli 24. Sutor Gatto 25. Silvano Lattanzi 26. Gaetano Lentini 27. Liverano & Liverano 28. Egidio Marchioro 29. Gianni Margliano 30. Anna Matuozzo 31. Sartoria Antonio Panico Napoli 32. Sartoria Antonio Panico Roma 33. Franco Parmelli 34. Peron & Peron 35. Sartoria Enzo Pirozzi 36. Franco Puppato 37. Rubinacci Milano 38. Rubinacci Napoli 39. Pasquale Sabino 40. Franco Sagripanti 41. Spiriti Sarto 42. Sciamat 43. Siniscalchi 44. Mimmo Siviglia 45. Pierro Tedde 46. Sartoria Tonghi 47. Roberto Ugolini I made a mistake earlier. The number of custom tailors throughout Italy that are currently in existence is 47, not 45.
Most of those are quite well-known establishments (I own and occasionally wear items Lemmi made for my father back in the 70's), but there are countless others. You do realise that Italy has about 60 million inhabitants, don't you? In any case, why would you take a random list produced by a random forum member as the final word on this matter? Or am I missing a joke here? PS Unlike Rubinacci, Caraceni is not a firm with branches. The sartorie you listed are separate operations.

David not does not make the shirts but I can understand why he would be hurt; although it is the customer's choice, whether they order one shirt or have a wardrobe full of DR clothing. David based in America, while the shirts are made in Manchester (England).

How about going to Huntsman and requesting that the MTM suit should not bear the company name - after all, a Huntsman employee measures the person and sends off the details to the makers. I think forum members would have a different opinion.

Originally Posted by OxxfordSJLINY

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A Style Forum member posted a list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy a while back. I copied that list to one of my Microsoft Word 2003 Accounts off line. Here is the list of each and every custom tailor throughout Italy (some of the make tailored clothing, some of the make shirts, some of them make footwear and some of them make accessories) that is currently in existence:

1. Sartoria Gaetano Aloisio
2. Salvatore Ambrosi and Gennaro Solito
3. Daniele Arcaio
4. Lemmi Augusto
5. Stefano Bemer
6. Berluti
7. Riccardo Freccia Bestetti
8. Bontoni
9. A. Caraceni Milano
10. B. Caraceni Milano
11. C. Caraceni Milano
12. Domenico Caraceni Roma
13. F. Caraceni Milano
14. Giovanni Celentano
15. Aimi Claudio & Gigliotti Franco
16. Vittorio Coccurello
17. Como
18. Sartoria Marco Costantini
19. Sartoria Carmelo Crimi
20. Andrea Donadio
21. Sartoria Ferrari (not to be confused with the car brand)
22. Sartoria Formosa
23. Sartoria Fratelli
24. Sutor Gatto
25. Silvano Lattanzi
26. Gaetano Lentini
27. Liverano & Liverano
28. Egidio Marchioro
29. Gianni Margliano
30. Anna Matuozzo
31. Sartoria Antonio Panico Napoli
32. Sartoria Antonio Panico Roma
33. Franco Parmelli
34. Peron & Peron
35. Sartoria Enzo Pirozzi
36. Franco Puppato
37. Rubinacci Milano
38. Rubinacci Napoli
39. Pasquale Sabino
40. Franco Sagripanti
41. Spiriti Sarto
42. Sciamat
43. Siniscalchi
44. Mimmo Siviglia
45. Pierro Tedde
46. Sartoria Tonghi
47. Roberto Ugolini

I made a mistake earlier. The number of custom tailors throughout Italy that are currently in existence is 47, not 45.

You've missed one: E. Caraceni.

I'm sympathetic to Matt's POV on the use of "artist." The unfortunate thing about art is that you don't get to decide whether you're an artist. Time and other people do. Most people I've met who self-describe as artists tend to be wankers. Ironically, many of the best artists in history saw themselves as craftsmen plying their trade.

--Andre

Originally Posted by George

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You've missed one: E. Caraceni.

No list of Italian tailors is complete without Mario Zuccala of Florence.


- B

Originally Posted by Macallan

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David not does not make the shirts but I can understand why he would be hurt; although it is the customer's choice, whether they order one shirt or have a wardrobe full of DR clothing. David based in America, while the shirts are made in Manchester (England).

How about going to Huntsman and requesting that the MTM suit should not bear the company name - after all, a Huntsman employee measures the person and sends off the details to the makers. I think forum members would have a different opinion.

It seems there is some kind of vendetta against David Reeves.

The last thread was spoiled by the constant bickering of certain Sfers on the essential subject of sleeves.

Internet feuds are funny if they,re not spoiling the flow of information available on Style Forum or stay in the background as an occasional distraction.

I do not know him and I will never use his services but it is painful that some individuals are constantly targeting him .

As a "brand" albeit one in it's infancy it seems with every statement I make I get put on the "stand". I don't want to carefully craft every post like a press release. As a Brand, a business owner and an employer it no longer seems possible or wise for me to comment on the forums. For people that PM me for advice or information I can be reached via the email on my site. We are also working on the website now (finally!), offering highly specialized alterations in association with Madame Paulette and actively pursuing wholesale RTW with a number of stores in London and NYC. If anyone would like to be put on our Email list please contact: [email protected] Best, Dave.

Originally Posted by David Reeves

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As a "brand" albeit one in it's infancy it seems with every statement I make I get put on the "stand". I don't want to carefully craft every post like a press release. As a Brand, a business owner and an employer it no longer seems possible or wise for me to comment on the forums.

For people that PM me for advice or information I can be reached via the email on my site.

We are also working on the website now (finally!), offering highly specialized alterations in association with Madame Paulette and actively pursuing wholesale RTW with a number of stores in London and NYC. If anyone would like to be put on our Email list please contact: [email protected]

Best,

Dave.



You are welcome to stay .

You have been honest about your professional activities and your commercial involvements and it is more than certain individuals coming on SF with hidden commercial agendas.