Brands that mean mediocrity

Vox,
in my experience the average business person buys Silver Label RL, or worse Green Label RL, Joseph Abboud, hugo boss, JABank. In comparison that crowd, whats available from Brooks brothers is a huge step up in quality.

There shirts are tents, which is exactly what todays business people are used to, and who cares, if you know better you can taper them, and dart them, and you're all set.

The suits in the 1818 range and GF are a big step above the mall brands. In my estimation they were a pretty nice buy for the price range.

The shoes are nice step above Allen Edmonds, if you're a business person reasonably concerned about what you wear, you most likely buy Allen Edmonds from Nordstroms or Lord and Taylor.

There suits are priced competitively with its direct competition, which are Polo Blue label, Hickey Freeman and the like. Brooks is not competitive with brands like Oxxford, Kiton or Brioni, where the cost is 3-5x that of Golden Fleece.

i am not too knowledgeable of zegna but my image of zegna is mediocre as well.


i understand the whole diffusion line thing with z zegna.

what i dont understand is all their mainline lines like zegna couture, or zegna napoli? ( i have never seen this any store, even their boutique here in south coast) or zegna with su misura or trofeo in the name. i dont know what these are, and what is above the other.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Brooks on the other hand had a reputation for top of the line stuff. This was in an era before the Italian handmade craze. At least, no one we knew shopped at Wilkes (though probably someone my father worked with must have).

I think that it would be unusual for a Brooks customer in the 1960s or 1970s wearing a BB business suit, dinner wear or formal wear to think in anyway that the quality of what they had or the service that they got was in anyway less than the very best. Wearing BB was a legitimate option even if you could afford something else...and there was certainly a degree of unwavering belief among many that it was preferable to look correctly American than look English or "showbiz ."

I doubt anyone wearing BB today thinks that he is wearing the best. So, at some point, the line was crossed. I think that it was in the early eighties, but maybe it was mid seventies.


- B

Back in the day Brooks had lots of gradations. Once you got out of kids clothes it was essentially a cradle-to-grave operation. You started out at Brooksgate and then went on from there. Once you got to the tailored clothing you could spend a lot of money. The Brooks English shoes and shirts were always a good deal more expensive than their American counterparts (nothing being made in Malaysia at the time). And then for real luxury there were always plenty of one-off items from England as well as the whole Peal line. I never recall thinking about any of it as good, honest clothing (not that it wasn't that). And I never felt any real Yankee vibe their either--BB was really a NYC store; you had to go to more regional NE outfitters if you were looking for that taste of austerity and forbearance.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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I think that it would be unusual for a Brooks customer in the 1960s or 1970s wearing a BB business suit, dinner wear or formal wear to think in anyway that the quality of what they had or the service that they got was in anyway less than the very best. Wearing BB was a legitimate option even if you could afford something else...and there was certainly a degree of unwavering belief among many that it was preferable to look correctly American than look English or "showbiz ."

I doubt anyone wearing BB today thinks that he is wearing the best.

But is this the result of a decline in quality or a shift in the standards by which quality is judged? Golden Fleece is still a very nice suit. Qualitatively, is it far off the mark of what Brooks was offering then? I find it difficult to think so. Part of what's changed is that these days, no one wants to look 'merican. Some of that is Brooks' fault, some of it isn't.

I freely admit that some areas need improvement -- Brooks would move up in my eyes if it stocked every store with two Brigg umbrellas and let them sit there until they sold, even if they never sold. Write them off as decorating expenses, but at least they'd be there.

Some of it is definitely that standards have changed. For instance, I don't think anyone used to believe a BB shirt was mid-quality. However, by today's standards, they are a scandal! Box pleat, messy shirred sleeve cuff, no pattern matching, plastic buttons, all machine stitched, sailcloth-like fabric.

Similarly, BB did a lot of swelled edges, but always with a machine stitch. Any luxe outlet now would not stock such an abomination. Even those crummy one-off stores on 5th and Madision selling Italianate junk show visible pick stitching (which may be by machine but looks like hand). No one in the '70s would have thought a machined edge on a tweed jacket was a sign of inferior quality, but the modern iGent can't tolerate that crap.

Originally Posted by pejsek

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Back in the day Brooks had lots of gradations. Once you got out of kids clothes it was essentially a cradle-to-grave operation. You started out at Brooksgate and then went on from there. Once you got to the tailored clothing you could spend a lot of money. The Brooks English shoes and shirts were always a good deal more expensive than their American counterparts (nothing being made in Malaysia at the time). And then for real luxury there were always plenty of one-off items from England as well as the whole Peal line. I never recall thinking about any of it as good, honest clothing (not that it wasn't that).

That's exactly it.

Originally Posted by pejsek

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And I never felt any real Yankee vibe their either--BB was really a NYC store; you had to go to more regional NE outfitters if you were looking for that taste of austerity and forbearance.

Preppy fun wear came from the stores next to the schools. The Brooks stuff was different in the sense that it was more associated with the mirage of the Eastern establishment running the machinery of companies and government, more accessible and with a broader reach. I guess that the mirage had an element of reality for a hundred years or so.

- B

Too many people on this forum forget that we are, at most, 1% of the American population that cares about better clothing. Most people love Brooks, and are probably blown away by and intimidated by Paul Stuart. To most, these are not mediocre brands at all.

Luxury and quality are two different things. They overlap only somewhat.

The non-non-iron Brooks OCBD is still high quality. And the cloth is not luxurious. It is quite nice after much use, but the true OCBD begins life as a hairshirt.

Originally Posted by Mr. Moo

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Too many people on this forum forget that we are, at most, 1% of the American population that cares about better clothing. Most people love Brooks, and are probably blown away by and intimidated by Paul Stuart. To most, these are not mediocre brands at all.
Some of the public figures on here get their suits made by substandard tailors and they are blown away too but the tailoring looks mediocre to me.

Originally Posted by sho'nuff

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i
what i dont understand is all their mainline lines like zegna couture, or zegna napoli? ( i have never seen this any store, even their boutique here in south coast) or zegna with su misura or trofeo in the name. i dont know what these are, and what is above the other.


Couture and Napoli couture aren't mainline they're a level above. Su misura is MTM mainline . I guess there might be su misure Couture to. For example they charge 2x the price for couture Hertiage pants at the local outlet.

The Roma,Milano and Travelers are the mainlines . At least I think thats the right ranking.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

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Some of the public figures on here get their suits made by substandard tailors and they are blown away too but the tailoring looks mediocre to me.

Right, to you. But to Joe Zay Banks from Detroit whose standard of excellence is the Men's Wherehouse, a trip to Brooks Brothers could be a life altering experience.

Originally Posted by Nicola

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Couture and Napoli couture aren't mainline they're a level above. Su misura is MTM mainline . I guess there might be su misure Couture to. For example they charge 2x the price for couture Hertiage pants at the local outlet.

The Roma,Milano and Travelers are the mainlines . At least I think thats the right ranking.

thanks. that clears it up somewhat

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

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But is this the result of a decline in quality or a shift in the standards by which quality is judged? Golden Fleece is still a very nice suit. Qualitatively, is it far off the mark of what Brooks was offering then? I find it difficult to think so. Part of what's changed is that these days, no one wants to look 'merican. Some of that is Brooks' fault, some of it isn't.

I freely admit that some areas need improvement -- Brooks would move up in my eyes if it stocked every store with two Brigg umbrellas and let them sit there until they sold, even if they never sold. Write them off as decorating expenses, but at least they'd be there.

Brooks used to have their own fabrics milled in England for their entire range...and there wasn't a great variety of fabrics compared to what we are used to today for MTM and bespoke. So, Brooks was a very important, high volume customer of English woolens, and what they got was probably as good is it was possible at that time. I don't know anything about Greenfield's stuff for BB, but I have read that the fabrics are not the best. So, yes, I guess I think the quality was better. The old BB tailored stuff was very much put together by hand, even if there was no concern whatsover over visible evidence of hand work.

As for looking American: a lot more of the world looks American today than forty years ago. But, it is not the BB look.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Some of it is definitely that standards have changed. For instance, I don't think anyone used to believe a BB shirt was mid-quality. However, by today's standards, they are a scandal! Box pleat, messy shirred sleeve cuff, no pattern matching, plastic buttons, all machine stitched, sailcloth-like fabric.

Similarly, BB did a lot of swelled edges, but always with a machine stitch. Any luxe outlet now would not stock such an abomination. Even those crummy one-off stores on 5th and Madision selling Italianate junk show visible pick stitching (which may be by machine but looks like hand). No one in the '70s would have thought a machined edge on a tweed jacket was a sign of inferior quality, but the modern iGent can't tolerate that crap.

Yep. This reminds me of dopey's disappointment that the one error Winston's made on something for him recently was that he asked for a machine sewn swelled edge, but they did it by hand instead.

Anyway: not to make this all about BB, but haven't established that BB is today, in fact, mediocre?

- B

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

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But is this the result of a decline in quality or a shift in the standards by which quality is judged? Golden Fleece is still a very nice suit. Qualitatively, is it far off the mark of what Brooks was offering then? I find it difficult to think so. Part of what's changed is that these days, no one wants to look 'merican. Some of that is Brooks' fault, some of it isn't.

I freely admit that some areas need improvement -- Brooks would move up in my eyes if it stocked every store with two Brigg umbrellas and let them sit there until they sold, even if they never sold. Write them off as decorating expenses, but at least they'd be there.

This is a tough question. When I look at BB today I see no continuity with the past. Yes, the GF is probably a nice suit and some of the Italian-made ones have probably been okay. I just can't shake the perception that today's BB is a simulacrum of the real thing, so making comparative judgments is kind of a stick in the eye. The styles then had an authenticity that can no longer be recalled. BB was always an American creation--but in a more cosmopolitan than provincial sense. It kills me that today's neo-trads shun foreign influences and foreign-made things. If I were forced to choose, say, five adjectives to describe the historical BB anglophile would be one of them.