The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[Belligero]

Hesitate to recommend given the current Calatrava catfight, but am partial to the 5196 myself.

View attachment 1029631

While that’s probably the best-looking of the Calatrava range, particularly in platinum with the Breguet numerals, the movement is comically undersized for its case:

Though I don’t think a properly-integrated design is too much to expect for a watch at that price level, Patek evidently feels differently. I get the strong impression that they’ve become a very complacent company over the last decade or two.

 

[Riva]

Thing is I have no sympathy for your friend, especially given that he had the means to follow his "passion" which is not true of 99.99% of potential watchmaking apprentices. When you truly care you find a way. You borrow, beg, you go work in a related field to pick up the required skills, you make do with imperfect alternatives. Smith spent half a decade in his parents' basement redoing his "I want an apprenticeship" watch over and over again until it could pass Daniels' standards - at no income whatsoever, and not knowing whether he could make a career at it (because many of these skills wouldn't be that useful at Patek etc.). And I think that is what people have respect for. Not just the skill or output but the immense amount of work that it has taken to get there. No matter the field it takes 10-15 years before you start making decent output, and perhaps 30 years before you reach anywhere near your peak. It's competitive all the way and never something that has a financial ROI, at least if you have the talent to do it you can make a lot more money elsewhere. There's a monomaniacal side to genius that just doesn't give a crap about these considerations and keeps going. I think.

I know a chap who with a few other McKinsey types put together a watch brand, got something with a ton of complications assembled by a third party, and then sold a few at a relative profit. They had a lot of fun but does he "deserve" recognition as a "watchmaker"? The team has disbanded and is back in corporate jobs, naturally. The whole thing could have been out of that parody of the modern watch world, or like one of these hastily assembled MTM operations calling themselves "bespoke" and saying something about how that suit is better than the "old fashioned" tailors and modern in some way like the auto fitting technology.

Of course not, we're talking about someone with biz background and other things to value in life than just making watches. Respect is only deserving to those truly dedicated in his/her field. Not everyone needs respect or success (depending on the goal) though...

Anyway the point is given the hurdles to become a real watchmaker it's no surprise today they're only a handful.

 

[am55]

I highlight my ignorance, upon memory, last artist I recall with specific colour was Yves Klein... Shame on me!
Didn’t think it a current trend.

I never commented on Klein but it is actually a great example where his colour became core to his work. I walked into a gallery in, I think, Hong Kong or maybe London, and there was a disheveled thing, like a metal sponge or a Lego Technic that had been in a car crash, except there were flecks of paint left in between the rust... in International Klein Blue (IKB). I immediately thought of him and lo and behold it was an original, if in poor condition. Although in a way IKB has become the AP RO of Klein - that's what we remember him for and that is the thread that unifies his work, to the point that as AP has become the RO company (at least as per Dino's Genta interview posted earlier, it seems the man himself thinks so) Klein has become the IKB artist and e.g. the fire paintings are harder to fit in with that vision of the man.

 

[am55]

Don’t think the analogy full apply here, but capture why i’m always felt let down by the 3 stars in NYC...

My theory is that the American palate is shaped by the national optimisation for simplicity/blandness and size, and a few other things to do with history. For example the "best" steak in the US has this overwhelming corn taste which feels really off if you've grown up eating grass fed beef, and conversely I'm sure the yanks think the grass fed stuff is weird or the steakhouses would have adapted.

 

[am55]

Of course not, we're talking about someone with biz background and other things to value in life than just making watches. Respect is only deserving to those truly dedicated in his/her field. Not everyone needs respect or success (depending on the goal) though...

Anyway the point is given the hurdles to become a real watchmaker it's no surprise today they're only a handful.

I think it's a supply/demand thing. The hurdles to becoming a successful hedge fund manager whose results are not levered beta and AUM not a function of birth are enormous also, but there is a long queue to give it a shot anyway, and even just to enter the feeder careers which are not particularly pleasant themselves.

 

[Riva]

I think it's a supply/demand thing. The hurdles to becoming a successful hedge fund manager whose results are not levered beta and AUM not a function of birth are enormous also, but there is a long queue to give it a shot anyway, and even just to enter the feeder careers which are not particularly pleasant themselves.

Lol I love reading your posts. So eloquently put or elegant when needed. Entertaining enough without delving the context.

 

[chocomallo]

While that’s probably the best-looking of the Calatrava range, particularly in platinum with the Breguet numerals, the movement is comically undersized for its case:

Though I don’t think a properly-integrated design is too much to expect for a watch at that price level, Patek evidently feels differently. I get the strong impression that they’ve become a very complacent company over the last decade or two.

5196 would be better at 35mm than 37mm, but it still is excellent with the 215 movement. I do not think they are complacent. Rather they followed the big watch trend. Before this, they made the 3976 which was the same as the original 31mm reference 96. That is a rather dramatic size increase. I personally find the 3796 better than the 5196, regardless of wrist size. My wrist is 7.5" and I find the 3796 to be a fine size.

 

[am55]

.

 

[Riva]

.

The unfortunate circumstance of a UCSB graduate

 

[crazn]

.

why removed? lol

 

[am55]

Wrong Yes Minister joke for the setting. Too lazy to find the right one and put it in a nice screenshot.

 

[Dino944]

@Dino944 I am particularly interested in your views. I think Daniels and especially Smith are quintessentially British in their approach, design, philosophy, well, everything really and I wonder how that resonates with someone who is both deeply knowledgeable about watches, and philosophically and in every way American (I mean that in a good way - just that they are quite different).

Hi am,

I guess I am a bit late to the discussion, but spent most of yesterday with my other hobby. I think there are a variety of interesting points that have already been discussed, in terms of their style of work, and their innovation or lack thereof.

As for overall design, I like some of the simpler Roger Smith pieces, while the George Daniels pieces were not my taste, but that is more the aesthetics and dial designs. It is always interesting to see people trying to make as much of a watch on their own as possible (something that usually takes insanely deep pockets), and noble of them to use vintage methods and tools. From an artistic point of view, I can appreciate keeping traditional methods alive, true hand workmanship, and individual craftsmen making a watch with their name on it...but does it make for an overall better watch? Maybe in some ways, maybe not. I'm probably too practical to think that an independent watchmaker is a good choice, at least for me. Sure with Dufour , you do get a far finer finish than with brands like Patek, Lange, VC etc..but at what financial cost (if comparing each of their entry level pieces). For many it is a dream to own a Patek, Lange, VC etc and for some it does become a reality...but even for people who own a few nice watches Patek, Lange, VC etc...a Roger Smith or Dufour is a dream that is unlikely to come true. I can appreciate and enjoy watches that cost far less than something from Smith or Dufour, even if it is not as finely finished or is basically a mass produced item.

Perhaps we romanticize use of old methods and antique tools is a bit like people do with vintage cars vs. modern. People muse about craftsmen hammering away at aluminum body panels, and building beautiful Ferraris in the 1950s, 60s etc. However, the reality is the body panels were far from perfect, panel gaps varied, and the way the doors fit on each side of a single car could be off by significant amounts. With computers and robots we loose some of the human involvement, and we can no longer say they are truly hand built...but we have greater uniformity in terms of fit, finish, panel gaps, etc. It also reduces labor costs and allows for greater volume production, which brings more units to the public at a more reasonable price.

I suppose for some, having that ultra low volume watch, made by the person with his name on the dial is worth it, but I've never really been interested in owning a watch from an independent. Independents make some beautiful watches, but I've always been more concerned with certain practical aspects of owning a watch such as ease of service, parts availability, resale value (if I tire of a watch, or something happens to me and Mrs. Dino wants to sell some of my watches). If Independent X is dead...maybe I have to find someone to fabricate parts if a part breaks or isn't functioning properly. If you own a Patek, AP, or something owned by Richemont or Swatch Group you can easily get parts and service. There are shops in my area that will only buy Patek, Lange, AP, VC, Rolex and Cartier...so if I have a watch from Independent X...I may have few reference points for value (so resale value is more uncertain) and I probably have to try to get an auction house to sell it for me.

One of my friends is an avid watch collector, a watch forum moderator, he has visited several Swiss factories and museums, has studied and compared vintage and modern movements, and has worked for a high end watch AD. He has owned watches from Patek, AP, VC, and Rolex. At one point his VC collection contained more than 40 watches (vintage, modern, complicated, etc). However, he decided to streamline his collection (liquidating most) because he just couldn't wear everything he had. He bought a JDN rose gold tourbillon. He loves the watch, he had fun having some input with regard to details of his watch, he enjoyed communicating with Daniel Roth, and it is a beautiful watch. His life is so deeply intertwined with watches that it was a next step in his journey as a watch collector/enthusiast.

I did enjoy your post about food and classic cuisine. Mrs. Dino and I try lots of restaurants, particularly when we are on vacation. Sometime between 2005 and 2009 we ate at Moto in Chicago (its has since closed). Anyway, someone said, they read an article about it and how it infused science and food, and was something special to experience. So we had the what I believe was the "Moto Experience" tasting menu which was like 15 courses or something insane. My wife's martini came out in pipettes, the salmon was seared on an utra cold metal grill, there were something like mini pancakes "cooked" using liquid nitrogen...the cold caused the batter to become solid. Anyway, it was sort of like dinner and a show. It was fun, novel, but a bit like a magic act. Once you knew the tricks, you probably didn't need to go again...at least we didn't. It was entertaining, but there was nothing to compare it to. I didn't feel it was the best meal we had ever had, and it was not as though I ever developed a craving for something they made. On the other hand, my wife and I might have a craving for something we ate a restaurant with classic French cuisine, or a steak at a great steakhouse where we would return if we were in town again. Cheers!

 

[clee1982]

My theory is that the American palate is shaped by the national optimisation for simplicity/blandness and size, and a few other things to do with history. For example the "best" steak in the US has this overwhelming corn taste which feels really off if you've grown up eating grass fed beef, and conversely I'm sure the yanks think the grass fed stuff is weird or the steakhouses would have adapted.

American made it obvious and accessible, things has to be up and front in this country.

 

[clee1982]

Thing is I have no sympathy for your friend, especially given that he had the means to follow his "passion" which is not true of 99.99% of potential watchmaking apprentices. When you truly care you find a way. You borrow, beg, you go work in a related field to pick up the required skills, you make do with imperfect alternatives. Smith spent half a decade in his parents' basement redoing his "I want an apprenticeship" watch over and over again until it could pass Daniels' standards - at no income whatsoever, and not knowing whether he could make a career at it (because many of these skills wouldn't be that useful at Patek etc.). And I think that is what people have respect for. Not just the skill or output but the immense amount of work that it has taken to get there. No matter the field it takes 10-15 years before you start making decent output, and perhaps 30 years before you reach anywhere near your peak. It's competitive all the way and never something that has a financial ROI, at least if you have the talent to do it you can make a lot more money elsewhere. There's a monomaniacal side to genius that just doesn't give a crap about these considerations and keeps going. I think.

I know a chap who with a few other McKinsey types put together a watch brand, got something with a ton of complications assembled by a third party, and then sold a few at a relative profit. They had a lot of fun but does he "deserve" recognition as a "watchmaker"? The team has disbanded and is back in corporate jobs, naturally. The whole thing could have been out of that parody of the modern watch world, or like one of these hastily assembled MTM operations calling themselves "bespoke" and saying something about how that suit is better than the "old fashioned" tailors and modern in some way like the auto fitting technology.

I understand the sentiment, but the barrier entry has to be lower somehow, otherwise it’s going to die by death for a thousand cut or no one can afford it.

 

[clee1982]

And probably the rarest brand out there IRL and more elegant than many Mosers.

And guess what the only NYC distributor per their website is Flushing, kind intrigued